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Started By
Message
Politics by other means? Giuliani suspension should worry all lawyers
Posted on 6/29/21 at 4:39 am
Posted on 6/29/21 at 4:39 am
Turley, like Dershowitz, is a rare commodity --- an honest Leftist and lawyer.
quote:
Politics by other means? Giuliani suspension should worry all lawyers
By Jonathan Turley
June 26, 2021
This week, New York's Supreme Court took the extraordinary step of suspending Rudy Giuliani, former federal prosecutor and counsel to former President Trump, from practicing law. As a long-standing critic of Giuliani for his baffling, self-defeating and at times bizarre statements, I found the action was, on some level, reaffirming.
However, the fluid standard applied in Giuliani’s case raises serious concerns over how and when such suspensions will be imposed against lawyers in public controversies. Indeed, the Giuliani standard would seem to implicate a wide array of attorneys who straddle the line of legal and political advocacy.
The 33-page opinion is damning and embarrassing....
Such rhetoric leaves the impression that the investigators and the court itself were eager to impose judgment on Giuliani for the Capitol riot and other unrest through a bar action. In an actual case for incitement, such a causal connection would be rejected by any court as a violation of free speech. Many lawyers can be accused of fanning unrest or even violence, in cities ranging from Washington, D.C., to Portland, Ore., through their declarations on subjects ranging from police shootings to election fraud.
Likewise, Democratic members of Congress, attorneys representing Democratic campaigns and lawyers serving as legal analysts on television have challenged presidential elections regularly and unsuccessfully, including challenges made at the certification of the votes before Congress.
....
Yet while the court seemed to apply a special "Giuliani rule," it is unlikely to stay that way if — to paraphrase Carl von Clausewitz — the bar becomes "nothing but a continuation of politics by other means."
LINK
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Posted on 6/29/21 at 4:58 am to NC_Tigah
It's an attack on his politics by the Progfilth.
"The concern in this case is that we are seeing a weaponization of bar investigations after a wide (and well-funded) campaign to harass Republican lawyers, their firms and their clients after the 2020 election"
"The concern in this case is that we are seeing a weaponization of bar investigations after a wide (and well-funded) campaign to harass Republican lawyers, their firms and their clients after the 2020 election"
Posted on 6/29/21 at 5:24 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
What is missing in this opinion is a clear standard for when the failure to establish a case — as Giuliani failed to do with his election fraud claims — is a disbarring offense. In reality, many cases collapse in court over insufficient evidence. Election challenges are made without access to critical records or data held by election boards or officials — indeed, litigants often go to court to gain such access. Likewise, public interest lawyers often bring cases against the government, which classifies or withholds evidence.
So unbelievably scary. What the NYSC did is a threat to free speech rights, access to courts rights, and access to counsel.
If they can deprive a US President of right to counsel, what does that say to the rest of us.
I’m a practicing lawyer and I continue to maintain that this is the most disturbing thing to me about the treatment of Trump and his supporters.
Posted on 6/29/21 at 6:02 am to Wednesday
quote:
I’m a practicing lawyer and I continue to maintain that this is the most disturbing thing to me about the treatment of Trump and his supporters.
I've not yet read the opinion of the court, I'm waiting for my anger to subside. Is their standing that Rudy made false statements before the court? If so, isn't every lawyer who puts forth a losing argument essentially making a false statement, as only one side may be the victor? How many defense attorneys claim their client is innocent while concocting an outlandish narrative that is proven to be false by the prosecution's evidence and decided by judge or jury?
This case is absolutely disheartening.
Posted on 6/29/21 at 6:24 am to NC_Tigah
We're just seeing the natural progression of the Left.
They 'won' it all so now its time to consolidation power and finish the job
The purge of the political class:
1) Trump
2) His inner circle
3) His family
4) His most vocal and powerful supporters
5) The rest of his supporters
6) Those that questioned the election at any time and in any way
7) Those that still refuse to denounce him
8) Those that didn't denounce Trump soon enough or loudly enough (where Mitch & Co. get the axe)
9) Those that dissent on any view of the Left (never Trump Republicans get the axe)
10) Those that aren't vocal enough in their support of the Left (silence is violence)
They 'won' it all so now its time to consolidation power and finish the job
The purge of the political class:
1) Trump
2) His inner circle
3) His family
4) His most vocal and powerful supporters
5) The rest of his supporters
6) Those that questioned the election at any time and in any way
7) Those that still refuse to denounce him
8) Those that didn't denounce Trump soon enough or loudly enough (where Mitch & Co. get the axe)
9) Those that dissent on any view of the Left (never Trump Republicans get the axe)
10) Those that aren't vocal enough in their support of the Left (silence is violence)
Posted on 6/29/21 at 6:29 am to BeNotDeceivedGal6_7
quote:No. Nowhere near that limited. The "Court" even incorporated statements made outside of the courtroom which they considered as "misleading".
Is their standing that Rudy made false statements before the court?
They inclusively cite "false and misleading statements" (many not yet PROVEN false btw) made both in and out of court.
quote:
we conclude that there is uncontroverted evidence that respondent communicated demonstrably false and misleading statements to courts, lawmakers and the public at large in his capacity as lawyer for former President Donald J. Trump
"Hands up! Don't shoot!"
Posted on 6/29/21 at 7:38 am to BeNotDeceivedGal6_7
quote:
Is their standing that Rudy made false statements before the court? If so, isn't every lawyer who puts forth a losing argument essentially making a false statement, as only one side may be the victor?
That is where the ethical violations begin. Rudy knowingly made false statements in court. Rudy admitted that certain statements were false, he just claims he thought they were true at the time. This isn't a danger of attacking losing arguments; this is preventing attorneys from intentionally lying to the Court, which is a major ethical violation.
While Rudy claimed he thought the statements were true at the time, he could not explain why he thought they were true. Presented no evidence of what he relied on.
The suspension is heavy handed, and obviously politically motivated, but I don't find it scary at all. The public statements and arguments to legislatures were included in the opinion to support the extreme punishment. I do not think intentional lies should be protected free speech, particularly when they are undermining our democracy.
Posted on 6/29/21 at 9:02 am to NC_Tigah
They threaten us all; either agree with their version of politics and religion, or pay the price of Social Media 'cancel culture' or State-empowered persecution. Fascism 101. This very Post is 'insurrectionist', from the Left's chosen POV.
The heavy hand and frustration from said persecution will build until some seemingly mundane event triggers a snoball response. The Left thinks they will "never let a good crisis go to waste"...however..."as ye judge, so shall ye be judged". Urban areas will be a 'walking dead' nightmare, for real. As it spills into the Suburbs, real 'justice' will begin it's reassertion.
Hubristic, self-righteous idiots.
The heavy hand and frustration from said persecution will build until some seemingly mundane event triggers a snoball response. The Left thinks they will "never let a good crisis go to waste"...however..."as ye judge, so shall ye be judged". Urban areas will be a 'walking dead' nightmare, for real. As it spills into the Suburbs, real 'justice' will begin it's reassertion.
Hubristic, self-righteous idiots.
Posted on 6/29/21 at 9:08 am to NC_Tigah
You can actually put fake witnesses on the stand, create a script for them, get caught and still practice...
.
Ben crump
.
Ben crump
Posted on 6/29/21 at 9:12 am to NC_Tigah
Lin Wood is on the chopping block as well.
Georgia doesn't want him around
Georgia doesn't want him around
Posted on 6/29/21 at 9:31 am to NC_Tigah
Giuliani should have been disbarred solely on the basis of his repeated dishonest representations to the courts. His depiction of those suits to the general public, while equally dishonest, are political and are protected by the First Amendment.
The NY Bar has no business disciplining lawyers for dishonest politics.
They were well within their rights to disbar him for professional misconduct outside of politics.
The NY Bar has no business disciplining lawyers for dishonest politics.
They were well within their rights to disbar him for professional misconduct outside of politics.
Posted on 6/29/21 at 9:34 am to Dday63
quote:
The suspension is heavy handed, and obviously politically motivated, but I don't find it scary at all. The public statements and arguments to legislatures were included in the opinion to support the extreme punishment. I do not think intentional lies should be protected free speech, particularly when they are undermining our democracy.
You’re ignoring whole parts of the decision, of course. Because you’re a frickface.
The court took statements he made on his podcast as lies and used those to buttress their decision.
You’re not bothered because you agree with the idea of punishing political opponents. And you’re a frickface.
Posted on 6/29/21 at 9:39 am to the808bass
This is one of your more impressively argued posts, 808.
Name calling is a reliable standby, if its the bet you got.
But if you are ambitious enough, you really should try to understand the NY bar action and my post about it.
Then you can post more persuasively.
Name calling is a reliable standby, if its the bet you got.
But if you are ambitious enough, you really should try to understand the NY bar action and my post about it.
Then you can post more persuasively.
Posted on 6/29/21 at 9:43 am to NC_Tigah
This is very concerning and obviously politically motivated. As noted above, no one lies more than Ben Crump, and he seems to still be practicing.
Lawyers unintentionally mislead the courts every day and are not disbarred. Many do so intentionally. I have not seen any evidence that he intentionally lied. This is another march toward authoritarianism.
Lawyers unintentionally mislead the courts every day and are not disbarred. Many do so intentionally. I have not seen any evidence that he intentionally lied. This is another march toward authoritarianism.
Posted on 6/29/21 at 9:45 am to nitwit
quote:
But if you are ambitious enough, you really should try to understand the NY bar action and my post about it. Then you can post more persuasively.
I read big chunks of the decision. They extensively cited statements Giuliani did not make in court as the basis (in part) for their decision. Go lie to someone else.
ETA: the whole document looked and sounded like it was written by the Democratic Party.
This post was edited on 6/29/21 at 9:46 am
Posted on 6/29/21 at 9:50 am to NC_Tigah
Giuliani is the federal prosecutor who decimated the NY Mafia and tamed the decades long "intractable" problems of NYC.
He is guilty of collecting evidence of voter fraud through witness affidavits, expert testimony, video proof and in-depth investigations. Crooked dems don't like that any more than the Mafia did.
He is guilty of collecting evidence of voter fraud through witness affidavits, expert testimony, video proof and in-depth investigations. Crooked dems don't like that any more than the Mafia did.
Posted on 6/29/21 at 9:55 am to the808bass
Good work, 808!
Just read til your lips get tired. Then rest.
Now, go back and look at my post and the reference to extra-judicial statements being protected by the First Amendment.
Break it down into steps and it's easier...
Just read til your lips get tired. Then rest.
Now, go back and look at my post and the reference to extra-judicial statements being protected by the First Amendment.
Break it down into steps and it's easier...
Posted on 6/29/21 at 9:58 am to nitwit
You’re just halving the baby.
Posted on 6/29/21 at 9:58 am to the808bass
quote:
ETA: the whole document looked and sounded like it was written by the Democratic Party.
That's because it was. Like so many things the demprog machine claims, they are wrong and in time it will prove that Giuliani was more than right about all of the facts of the fraud.
Posted on 6/30/21 at 10:51 am to Dday63
quote:
While Rudy claimed he thought the statements were true at the time, he could not explain why he thought they were true. Presented no evidence of what he relied on.
Actually, Rudy disputes this claim. Go to about 1:20 seconds if you want to get to this statement by RG.
"In my papers I present to them all kinds of affidavits showing that I am telling the truth. They don't mention that in their opinion, pretend as if I didn't offer the affidavits, and very dishonestly say well he said these things but he never showed us the affidavits. If you read my papers you'll see that I have 300 and something affidavits. I told them I would produce any affidavit they wanted. They never asked for one and they just concluded I wasn't telling the truth."
twitter video Rudy interview
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