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Started By
Message
NY HCQ study is a joke. We are being lied to
Posted on 5/13/20 at 7:39 am
Posted on 5/13/20 at 7:39 am
LINK
1. They used a composite end-point that treated intubation and death equally
2. 44% were younger than 60 years old in the control group vs. 37% in the hcq group
3. 50% of patients in the hcq group had history of hypertension vs 7% in the control group (relevant because we now know htn is a massive predictor of poor outcome)
4. Hcq group p02/Fi02 ratio was 223, control was 346. <300-350 is considered ARDS
Even with these disparities, if you isolate "death" from the primary outcome, 60% of patients in the hcq primary outcome group died vs. 89% of the control.
the investigators chose not to do this analysis which makes no sense- every study I've ever read that had a composite outcome including death always pulled that out and looked at it on it's own- and would definitely mention if it reduced mortality like that.
yet, every headline reads "HCQ FAILS ANOTHER TEST"
1. They used a composite end-point that treated intubation and death equally
2. 44% were younger than 60 years old in the control group vs. 37% in the hcq group
3. 50% of patients in the hcq group had history of hypertension vs 7% in the control group (relevant because we now know htn is a massive predictor of poor outcome)
4. Hcq group p02/Fi02 ratio was 223, control was 346. <300-350 is considered ARDS
Even with these disparities, if you isolate "death" from the primary outcome, 60% of patients in the hcq primary outcome group died vs. 89% of the control.
the investigators chose not to do this analysis which makes no sense- every study I've ever read that had a composite outcome including death always pulled that out and looked at it on it's own- and would definitely mention if it reduced mortality like that.
yet, every headline reads "HCQ FAILS ANOTHER TEST"
16
Posted on 5/13/20 at 7:42 am to Tiguar
A little secret about pharma studies is that anyone can get the results to look like they want. There will be drugs with 90% failure rates in terms of efficacy, but if there's a few good trials the drug will get approved.
Social science itself is a perfect example of literally anything anyone happens to want confirmed getting a confirming study.
Social science itself is a perfect example of literally anything anyone happens to want confirmed getting a confirming study.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 7:44 am to Tiguar
Two reasons.
HCQ is generic and can be made for pennies per dose by any pharma company.
Resdemivir is proprietary and extremely lucrative for Gilead.
Other reason is, of course, OMB.
HCQ is generic and can be made for pennies per dose by any pharma company.
Resdemivir is proprietary and extremely lucrative for Gilead.
Other reason is, of course, OMB.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 7:49 am to Tiguar
And it's HCQ alone, right?
The doctors having over 90% success rates with HCQ are combining it with azythromycin and zinc salts (Zn+ ion). The antibodies to fight secondary infection so the immune system can focus on CV and zinc salts because most patients have insufficient zinc ion in their blood due to poor diets. The HCQ seems to help the zinc penetrate the epithelial cell walls more efficiently than without HCQ. Once in the cytoplasm the zinc ion can do it's work against RNA polymerase and halt CV RNA replication.
This will not only work for CV but should work with any virus that uses cell endoplasm as the location for RNA replication including influenza.
ETA: thank God most front line doctors understand this and are ignoring the negative propaganda about HCQ.
The doctors having over 90% success rates with HCQ are combining it with azythromycin and zinc salts (Zn+ ion). The antibodies to fight secondary infection so the immune system can focus on CV and zinc salts because most patients have insufficient zinc ion in their blood due to poor diets. The HCQ seems to help the zinc penetrate the epithelial cell walls more efficiently than without HCQ. Once in the cytoplasm the zinc ion can do it's work against RNA polymerase and halt CV RNA replication.
This will not only work for CV but should work with any virus that uses cell endoplasm as the location for RNA replication including influenza.
ETA: thank God most front line doctors understand this and are ignoring the negative propaganda about HCQ.
This post was edited on 5/13/20 at 7:51 am
Posted on 5/13/20 at 7:50 am to Tiguar
Thanks for posting.
Our hospital is getting 40 vials of remdesivir today. I was asked to help initial planning on patients as candidates for treatment. EUA indicates critical patients on vents, ECMO, etc, that is where I searched for journal articles to support. The results were not great. One study that was designed well with 200 patients had 8 deaths with treatment and 11 with placebo.
We had 2 ICU deaths this week, a father and son. Both admitted 4/28. Both were obese with DM. Both cleared by cardiology. Both decline because they were not proven effective. Both would have taken remdesivir, but we had none at the time. Father went on vent day 3 and died day 10. Son took 11 days to vent and died 5 days later. No one knows what could have been, but I would have loved to see the son give treatment a try at minimum.
Our hospital is getting 40 vials of remdesivir today. I was asked to help initial planning on patients as candidates for treatment. EUA indicates critical patients on vents, ECMO, etc, that is where I searched for journal articles to support. The results were not great. One study that was designed well with 200 patients had 8 deaths with treatment and 11 with placebo.
We had 2 ICU deaths this week, a father and son. Both admitted 4/28. Both were obese with DM. Both cleared by cardiology. Both decline because they were not proven effective. Both would have taken remdesivir, but we had none at the time. Father went on vent day 3 and died day 10. Son took 11 days to vent and died 5 days later. No one knows what could have been, but I would have loved to see the son give treatment a try at minimum.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 7:50 am to GumboPot
Yeah, there is another pre print study out there showing how adding zn to azithromycin and hcq was more effective than just hcq and azithromycin
Posted on 5/13/20 at 7:52 am to IslandBuckeye
The criteria for use right now for remdesivir is retarded. It won’t work on anyone they’re telling us to give it to. It won’t do anything once you’re intubated and been sick for over a week.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 7:53 am to tiggerthetooth
quote:
A little secret about pharma studies is that anyone can get the results to look like they want. There will be drugs with 90% failure rates in terms of efficacy, but if there's a few good trials the drug will get approved.
Social science itself is a perfect example of literally anything anyone happens to want confirmed getting a confirming study.
Mark Twain : "Figures often beguile me," he wrote, "particularly when I have the arranging of them myself; in which case the remark attributed to Disraeli would often apply with justice and force: 'There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics.'"
This post was edited on 5/13/20 at 7:54 am
Posted on 5/13/20 at 8:00 am to Tiguar
quote:
1. They used a composite end-point that treated intubation and death equally
Maybe not a big deal since intubation damn near meant the person was going to die, could be deceptive if they're trying hide non-deaths of recovered folks that were on HCQ and intubated.
quote:
Even with these disparities, if you isolate "death" from the primary outcome, 60% of patients in the hcq primary outcome group died vs. 89% of the control.
I guess that makes it deceptive.
quote:
2. 44% were younger than 60 years old in the control group vs. 37% in the hcq group
Probably not a significant deal, unless most of that 44% was way younger than 60 years old and the HCQ group's 37% was like 55 years old.
quote:
3. 50% of patients in the hcq group had history of hypertension vs 7% in the control group (relevant because we now know htn is a massive predictor of poor outcome)
HUGE deal!
quote:
4. Hcq group p02/Fi02 ratio was 223, control was 346. <300-350 is considered ARDS
I don't know what this means, but that seems highly favorable for HCQ.
This post was edited on 5/13/20 at 8:01 am
Posted on 5/13/20 at 8:00 am to Tiguar
It works. Doctors that prescribe it say so.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 8:02 am to Bestbank Tiger
quote:
Resdemivir is proprietary and extremely lucrative for Gilead.
Under patent for another 17 years...
Posted on 5/13/20 at 8:05 am to Sasquatch Smash
quote:
I don't know what this means, but that seems highly favorable for HCQ.
It means the patients in the HCQ group were oxygenating worse at baseline
quote:
Probably not a significant deal, unless most of that 44% was way younger than 60 years old and the HCQ group's 37% was like 55 years old.
19% of patients in the control group were <40. 10% of patients in the HCQ group were <40.
This post was edited on 5/13/20 at 8:07 am
Posted on 5/13/20 at 8:09 am to cadillacattack
The government shutdown of the economy is clearly not about CV19 any longer, if it ever was.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 8:09 am to Tiguar
quote:
It means the patients in the HCQ group were oxygenating worse at baseline
Ah. So, just like the VA retrospective, the HCQ folks were worse off than the control, yet a smaller percentage of them actually died in this study...
quote:
19% of patients in the control group were <40. 10% of patients in the HCQ group were <40.
Could be a big deal then.
Edit to add:
At least they acknowledge that the HCQ population was worse off in the paper. From abstract:
quote:
Hydroxychloroquine-treated patients were more severely ill at baseline than those who did not receive hydroxychloroquine (median ratio of partial pressure of arterial oxygen to the fraction of inspired oxygen, 223 vs. 360).
This post was edited on 5/13/20 at 8:36 am
Posted on 5/13/20 at 8:11 am to Tiguar
I don't know what any of this means but it sounds like we were lied to....again.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 8:18 am to Tiguar
quote:
Yeah, there is another pre print study out there showing how adding zn to azithromycin and hcq was more effective than just hcq and azithromycin
One has to wonder why Cold-Eeze doesn't get sued in to bankruptcy with their claims that their zinc lozenges shorten the time of colds caused by viruses. They defend their claims with many studies showing that people infected with the cold virus with higher blood concentrations of Zn2+ do not get sick at all or recover from the cold faster than infected people with lower concentrations of Zn2+. The rhinovirus, influenza and COVID all require RNA polymerase to replicate. According to reports from doctors on the front line, they state the mechanism is Zn2+ blocks RNA polymerase ( LINK). HCQ without bioavailble Zn2+ is just not going to work. However HCQ helps Zn2+ enter the cell endoplasm.
Note in my previous post I was writing the zinc ion as Z+. The correct way to write is is Zn+2. I should have checked the periodic table before assuming. Elemental zinc has 2 outer electrons and when it oxidizes into a salt those two electrons are lost and has a charge of +2.
This post was edited on 5/13/20 at 8:21 am
Posted on 5/13/20 at 8:21 am to GumboPot
I have a theory that covid19 somehow fricks with Zinc, too.
I recall many years back cold-eeze DID get sued- their nasal product caused loss of sense of smell and taste.
I think there may be a connection to that phenomenon and covid19 since mild cases have the loss of taste/smell.
I recall many years back cold-eeze DID get sued- their nasal product caused loss of sense of smell and taste.
I think there may be a connection to that phenomenon and covid19 since mild cases have the loss of taste/smell.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 8:22 am to Tiguar
I like it.
Posted on 5/13/20 at 8:23 am to Tiguar
Prudent to take zinc supplements right now?
Posted on 5/13/20 at 8:24 am to roadGator
quote:
Prudent to take zinc supplements right now?
I'm not sure if it's necessary for the general public. If you work in healthcare or another high-risk occupation, possibly.
If you get sick with covid19, definitely, but have to start it early.
This post was edited on 5/13/20 at 8:25 am
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