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re: Not a word about Custer

Posted on 6/26/17 at 6:56 am to
Posted by goatmilker
Castle Anthrax
Member since Feb 2009
64666 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 6:56 am to
quote:

Custers plan ended disastrously, but it was not tactically unsound. The Indians rarely stood and fought, so the idea was always to catch them before they could escape. This time they didnt run. Gatling guns would have helped Custer survive, but inly because they would have slowed him down so much he neverwould have found the Indians.


This is 100% correct but hard to understand today. At the time of Custer the fight against the plains indians was a disaster. Mainly because they could never find them. And when they seldom did the engagement was quick as the indians usually left quickly. The high amount of frustration cannot be over sold. The common thought of the day was the the plains indian would not hold up in a toe to toe fight with the US soldier so numbers did not matter to many including Custer. The storming of the village was thought to be sound as well as the indians would quickly surrender if hostages could be taken. Few had a good opinion Reno so I believe Custer never thought he would make the village just draw off enough indians for him to get into it. And while Custer was warned of the size of the encampment once again the indian had been a shadow on the plains. Once seen Custer got the bit and ran with it. It was poor judgement to get in the situation he did be I believe they fought well in Custers group to the bitter end.
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 6:58 am to
quote:

I'd go with Washington, Lee, Grant, Eisenhower, and/or Patton

Douglas MacArthur is going to come back to life and kick your arse, baw.


Custer has permeated the pop culture like no other military person in our history.


Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89781 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 7:13 am to
quote:

Custer has permeated the pop culture like no other military person in our history.


There is obviously a good bit of disagreement. Yes, he is the "soldier" that the SJWs would put forth as the representative of the American military. And I don't disagree with certain elements of your thesis - certainly out of proportion to his actual significance.

I mean, his defeat just led to a redoubled effort to destroy the plains Indians (which was accomplished in relatively short order). So, it was quite Pyrrhic from the native perspective. His wife was keen on protecting/preserving his legacy, and when the Western "culture" Renaissance happened - initially through the wild west shows and ultimately via all those Western films of the 1940s and 1950s - Custer certainly seems more significant than any other field grade officer of the 19th century American military, even all those other cats from the Civil War and Indian Wars.

But, for all practical purposes, Douglas MacArthur WAS the U.S. military for decades, at least in the public consciousness. He had already been a company commander when Patton got out of West Point. He was superintendent when the 15ers graduated. He had the corncob pipe thing, the sunglasses - I think you underestimate how larger than life he was, particularly from 1940 through 1951.

This post was edited on 6/26/17 at 7:31 am
Posted by Wolfhound45
Hanging with Chicken in Lurkistan
Member since Nov 2009
120000 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 7:18 am to
quote:

But, for all practical purposes, Douglas MacArthur WAS the U.S. military for decades, at least in the public consciousness.
Correct. And it is unfortunate that more people do not have a better grasp of the legacy of this man.

Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89781 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 7:24 am to
quote:

Correct. And it is unfortunate that more people do not have a better grasp of the legacy of this man.


At some point in the future, I may pursue a PhD in history. If I do, one of my short list of topics for a dissertation would be to compare/contrast those 2 cats.

Marshall - old Virginia family, but born in Pennsylvania. MacArthur, old Midwestern family, but born in Arkansas. Both born in 1880. Both achieved 5 stars. MacArthur was highly egotistical (more like Patton). Marshall was one of the most steady, stable and quiet leaders we've ever had in such a time of crisis. MacArthur was much more dynamic.
Posted by selfgen
youngsville
Member since Aug 2006
1053 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 7:29 am to
He died with shite in his pants....
Posted by PJinAtl
Atlanta
Member since Nov 2007
12775 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 7:30 am to
quote:

And why do so many blast the South for its treatment of blacks while ignoring what the North /US did to the Indians?
Two reasons.

1) The anti-slavery/anti-South side won the war, so they write the history.
2) The goal of subduing the Indians was to make them assimilate and be more like the rest of the country (land ownership, speak English, be Christian) where the south wanted to keep the blacks as a distinct separate entity.
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 7:31 am to


General Marshall is our greatest soldier and almost totally forgotten.
Posted by Ace Midnight
Between sanity and madness
Member since Dec 2006
89781 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 8:02 am to


Here's Kruger, Mac and Marshall in 1943 - interesting about Kruger - he actually commanded Third Army during the Louisiana Maneuvers, but was sent to the Pacific with Mac. Walter Kruger (a year or so younger than Marshall and Mac) was actually Prussian by birth and immigrated with his family at the age of 8.

There was an officer of the Waffen SS by the same name who reached the rank of Obergruppenfuhrer, the highest SS rank, comparable to 3 or 4 star U.S. general.
Posted by ljhog
Lake Jackson, Tx.
Member since Apr 2009
19122 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 9:28 am to
quote:

I think Custer was stupid and arrogant to get off his horses, form a circle and fight overwhelming numbers of Indians

Did not happen that way. The engagement was moving cavalry battle over a large area and most likely Custer was killed early on.
Posted by LSUERDOC
Member since Jul 2013
2608 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 9:58 am to
quote:

The fort recovery disaster, Miami Indians led by little turtle massacred between 700 and 900 militia


This wasn't at Fort Recovery. Fort Recovery was built on the site of the massacre of General Arthur St Clair's troops a few years earlier...which is what you are referring to.
Posted by goatmilker
Castle Anthrax
Member since Feb 2009
64666 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 10:11 am to
I do not believe it was a mounted battle. The number of casings in several areas suggest several dismounted skirmishes. Including Custer who trying to move down to the Indian camp but was pushed back to last stand hill where the command was quickly dispatched. They would not have stayed on horseback in this or most of the other engagements. Reno's calvary charge quickly turned into a dismounted battle then a rout as well.

The Custer Myth By Col. Graham is a great source book.
This post was edited on 6/26/17 at 10:13 am
Posted by WhiskeyPapa
Member since Aug 2016
9277 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 10:21 am to
quote:

I do not believe it was a mounted battle. The number of casings in several areas suggest several dismounted skirmishes.


It was a static battle with the troopers in various firing lines. The shell casings they recently picked up show that.

I don’t know if anyone has mentioned it but the troopers had shells for their carbines made of copper, not brass. They were cheaper. Our government used to be parsimonious. In any case, the copper shells easily deformed under the heat of rapid firing and confronted the soon to be dead troopers with many malfunctions and stoppages.

This post was edited on 6/26/17 at 10:30 am
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
98667 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 10:25 am to
Nobody has ever heard of Ranald Mackenzie, commander of the US 2nd Cavalry, who pacified the Comanche, every bit as formidable an opponent as as the Sioux and Cheyenne, if not more so. He was not flamboyant and didn't get his command killed, so he didn't go down in history.

The plains Indians were going to lose no matter what, but it didn't have to be as tragic as it was. North of the "Medicine Line," there was much less conflict between the Indians and British/Canadians, because they took a diplomatic rather than military approach. The Indians respected someone who would deal straight with them. Gen. Nelson Miles was one of the few US Army officers who fit this description. He could usually quell disturbances with little or no bloodshed because he was universally respected among the Indians.
Posted by Jim Rockford
Member since May 2011
98667 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 10:33 am to
quote:

And why do so many blast the South for its treatment of blacks while ignoring what the North /US did to the Indians?


Well, there wasn't a distinction between the two. The South was 100% complicit as well. The Trail of Tears was perpetrated by Southerners. And there are few Indians in Texas for a reason.
Posted by Zach
Gizmonic Institute
Member since May 2005
112773 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 10:36 am to
Errol Flynn played him in an old movie.

Custer was the most photographed American of the 19th Century. Partly because photography was just getting popular during his lifetime. And partly because he really liked having his photo taken.
Posted by bencoleman
RIP 7/19
Member since Feb 2009
37887 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 3:26 pm to
quote:

This wasn't at Fort Recovery. Fort Recovery was built on the site of the massacre of General Arthur St Clair's troops a few years earlier...which is what you are referring to


Huh? Then it was at fort recovery, it just wasn't named that yet.
Posted by asurob1
On the edge of the galaxy
Member since May 2009
26971 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 3:38 pm to
quote:

This was like in every bar in America:


There is a key word in your sentence.

No one today has ever heard of Custer.

Hell, more people know Schwarzkopf then custer.
Posted by mofungoo
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2012
4583 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 3:52 pm to
quote:

Custer was an absolute idiot.

Big time.
Posted by Zach
Gizmonic Institute
Member since May 2005
112773 posts
Posted on 6/26/17 at 3:58 pm to
quote:

Custer was an absolute idiot. Big time.


He was overconfident in what he was sending out there.
Kinda like this..

LINK
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