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Started By
Message
re: Nick Cruz - who waved his background checks and allowed him the guns?
Posted on 2/28/18 at 8:47 am to theunknownknight
Posted on 2/28/18 at 8:47 am to theunknownknight
quote:
For those that don’t know - every gun being sold has to be registered and called in before hand. Once a background check is submitted and fails, that gun CANNOT be registered to the buyer until the check clears.
None of this is true.
You fill out the 4473 - this is the ONLY document, IAW with federal law that connects a gun to a purchaser (unless you're in a registration state) - they use these forms to run the skip trace later, when a gun is discovered to have been used in a crime - they reconstruct the chain of title from the original purchaser to subsequent owners.
The NICS check is required (going back to the Brady law) in order for the FFL to release the weapon to the customer - the NICS check is tied to the person, not the firearm. You can legally buy, hold title to 1000s of guns if you want - they can't release them to you unless you pass the NICS check.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 8:48 am
1
Posted on 2/28/18 at 8:49 am to theunknownknight
From ATF:
So they don't "Register" them with the government. But if you purchase firearms from a licensed dealer, you can bet your arse there is a paper trail that leads to you. The only thing that stops this from being, in essence, full registration is that private sells are allowed and don't go through NICS.
quote:
Licensees shall retain each ATF Form 4473 for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. Where a licensee has initiated a National Instant Background Check System (NICS) check for a proposed firearms transaction, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm is not made, the licensee shall record any transaction number on the Form 4473, and retain the Form 4473 for a period of not less than 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry
So they don't "Register" them with the government. But if you purchase firearms from a licensed dealer, you can bet your arse there is a paper trail that leads to you. The only thing that stops this from being, in essence, full registration is that private sells are allowed and don't go through NICS.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 8:50 am to Ace Midnight
The feds have access to the NCIC database.
A database does exist. WE can’t access it. But LEO’s can.
That paper form is scanned. Scanned forms are now easily searchable.
A database does exist. WE can’t access it. But LEO’s can.
That paper form is scanned. Scanned forms are now easily searchable.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 8:51 am to theunknownknight
quote:
Are you trolling right now?
Your spreading misinformation about something you clearly don’t know shite about and I am trolling. Answer my question since you’re the expert.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 8:53 am to theunknownknight
quote:
That paper form is scanned. Scanned forms are now easily searchable.
Well I can tell you for matter of fact you’re full of shite.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 8:58 am to lsufan1971
quote:
Your spreading misinformation about something you clearly don’t know shite about and I am trolling. Answer my question since you’re the expert.
You have NO IDEA how computers work do you?
An FFL calls in to NICs - submits his number, the seller, the buyer’s personal ID info for a background check, and info on the gun being purchased.
That information on the check itself is SUBMITTED for a check.
Where do you think that submission goes? To a magic data fairy that goes poof seconds later?
It’s recorded and time stamped. The call itself, the check. Seller, buyer, gun, date to the minute.
LEOs have access to this called in data. If you think otherwise you’re an idiot.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 9:00 am
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:06 am to theunknownknight
Stop saying the killers name.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:09 am to theunknownknight
NICS can only hold for a few days. If they do not respond with a denial within the required time frame it is considered an approval, and the gun is released to the buyer.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:13 am to theunknownknight
quote:
You have NO IDEA how computers work do you?
NCIS and NCIC are two separate databases. They are not linked. NCIC does not contain any NICS info. I know this for a fact because I have been doing NCIC integration for LEO departments for 17 years. I have actually been to the NCIC facility in WV. I have a good friend that sits on the CJIS committee for the DOJ. I think I know what I am talking about.
quote:
info on the gun being purchased.
They don't give any other info other than its a handgun or long gun.
If you don't believe me go to your local dealer and ask them.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 9:16 am
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:17 am to Rougarou13
There is so much misinformation in this thread that it should be deleted
It is not considered an approval, the store is just legally allowed to sell it at that point if it has not been denied.
quote:
If they do not respond with a denial within the required time frame it is considered an approval,
It is not considered an approval, the store is just legally allowed to sell it at that point if it has not been denied.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:17 am to lsufan1971
quote:
NCIS and NCIC are two separate databases. They are not linked. NCIC does not contain any NICS info. I know this for a fact because I have been doing NCIC integration for LEO departments for 17 years. I have actually been to the NCIC facility in WV.
Did you login to their data servers and inspect their data instances and schemas?
You’re in my wheelhouse man. Big data. Do I need to post a swim lane data flow diagram to show how a call is submitted, queried, with a return call to NICS.
The data HAS to be stored in several places for the call to even function. Period.
One transaction id, three sets of data a) seller, b) buyer c) gun
All checked and have a response call - all tied to a transaction Id and time stamped.
Not in a denormalized dataset labeled “Form 4473”, that would be illegal.
But in a normalized set, decentralized, stored in different targets tied by transaction IDs. Legal AND actually necessary for the calls to function.
EVERY call. The approval is just the response. That doesn’t have to be recorded. But the call info itself HAS to be in some form.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 9:21 am
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:20 am to theunknownknight
According to the Time magazine article a policemans son, who was a student, was wearing a bullet proof vest during the shooter. He told cops his dad was a police and had given him the vest to wear
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:27 am to theunknownknight
quote:
Did you login to their data servers and inspect their data instances and schemas
My clients query NCIC all day long. Probably do over 100K a day. There is no query return for NICS data. I have clients in 18 states and you can't query NICS data from any of those states. There isn't a query available for it because it doesn't exist.
BTW even if they did OCR a scan 4473. 95% of the info filled out on a 4473 is handwritten information. OCR doesn't handle handwriting very well.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 9:28 am
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:31 am to theunknownknight
quote:
For starters, It’s been proven he committed a felony after the age of 18 - by calling the police directly and threatening to kill people.
Probably already been covered, but it was probably pleaded down. Is it on record he received a felony charge and conviction for it? I honestly don't know nor have even heard that before.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:32 am to lsufan1971
quote:
They don't give any other info other than its a handgun or long gun.
So let’s break this down based on everything you’ve said and see if it disproves anything in the OP.
Call submitted on day 2/28/18
Buyer number 12345
Seller number ABC
Gun type Rifle
Facts - felony committed after the age of 18, multiple entries into NCIC.
1. Call comes in.
2. End user at NICS submits dataset for real time processing and a query return call. All data fields are tied together by an ID, timestamped and recorded at NICS. Required to even go further.
3. Data then hits web service/interface that communicates with at least three other national databases - all passing the original TRX ID and timestamp (necessary for cross reference on call back). The data service then records l that data for the secondary check by timestamp and another internal ID. This is required in order for the query to process on their side. They each process the request validating IDs Cross referencing background data.
4. A return is sent to NICS - approve/deny with the orginal TRX on the call out.
The person on the phone says APPROVE OR DENY.
The approval doesn’t have to be stored. Everything else does, however because the process wouldn’t function to begin with.
Posted on 2/28/18 at 9:46 am to theunknownknight
customer wants to buy gun. Seller asks to see the ID of the potential buyer. Seller ask buyer to fill out 4473. Seller confirms the form is filled out correctly by the buyer. Seller completes information about the make, model, type of firearm (handgun, shotgun, long gun, other)and serial number. Seller takes the ID and 4473 and calls NICS. Seller provides FFL# to NICS agent along with the name, DOB, and state of residence for the potential buyer. Additionally, the seller must state the type of firearm (handgun, shotgun, long gun, other)only. Seller is not required to state make, model, or serial number. NICS will then proceed (okay to sell today), delay (max 3 day wait, seller may sell if NICS doesn't call in the 3 days to proceed or deny), or deny (can not sell the gun to the buyer) the transaction.
ETA: I called in 4473s everyday for 3 years. We did not use the NICS EZ Check so I can not speak to that
ETA: the form is kept with the seller and destroyed after 20 years. ATF can request to view/audit the 4473 at anytime if the find a gun at a crime scene and try to find out who it was sold to or stolen from.
ETA: I called in 4473s everyday for 3 years. We did not use the NICS EZ Check so I can not speak to that
ETA: the form is kept with the seller and destroyed after 20 years. ATF can request to view/audit the 4473 at anytime if the find a gun at a crime scene and try to find out who it was sold to or stolen from.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 10:06 am
Posted on 2/28/18 at 10:02 am to theunknownknight
quote:
I am saying that once a call goes out and it’s declined - that person can’t have a gun registered to them until that is cleared.
There is no registering, there is only a log of who the gun was sold to.
quote:
So if the gun owner sells the gun and registers it AFTER the failed clearance, he’s going to jail.
He was not declined so he legally bought the gun and the gun shop legally sold it to him.
quote:
he gun shop has an ID number they use to process each clearance check and each gun register. It’s all tracked.
This all has nothing to do with how or why the kid the got the gun. The laws were followed on the gun shops end. The problem with back ground checks are they only decline if you have something on your record. Yes they can pull the check and see if you lied on the 4473 but that is after the person has the gun. It's a flawed system and why gun owners have been against them from the start.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 10:04 am
Posted on 2/28/18 at 10:27 am to tharre4
quote:
ETA: I called in 4473s everyday for 3 years. We did not use the NICS EZ Check so I can not speak to that
ETA: the form is kept with the seller and destroyed after 20 years. ATF can request to view/audit the 4473 at anytime if the find a gun at a crime scene and try to find out who it was sold to or stolen from.
Where does the data go on the call in? Is the person you called shouting out the window asking people down the street if your customer is a good guy and just kinda trusting you are who you say you are?
No. The information is being recorded SOMEWHERE just for the query itself to process.
Your post confirms they have data on exactly who the buyer is, who the seller is, the type of gun, the number of guns, and exactly when the sell took place when cross referenced with financial/inventory records.
The FEDs knows exactly when and what you buy when it comes to firearms. They may not give this data out to any Joe Schmo but you are deluding yourselves if you think otherwise.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 10:36 am
Posted on 2/28/18 at 10:32 am to offshoretrash
quote:
He was not declined so he legally bought the gun and the gun shop legally sold it to him.
And why was he not declined when there has been released transcripts of him committing a felony once he turned 18? Why was he not apprehended? You are proving my point. The question in the OP is
Why was he not declined?
quote:
This all has nothing to do with how or why the kid the got the gun. The laws were followed on the gun shops end. The problem with back ground checks are they only decline if you have something on your record. Yes they can pull the check and see if you lied on the 4473 but that is after the person has the gun. It's a flawed system and why gun owners have been against them from the start.
Well how these things are tracked have nothing to do with the OP - but you were the one bringing in the argument to muddy the waters asking the ultimate question as to how the background check passed.
I was simply responding to you saying that you are fooling yourself if you think gun purchases can’t be tracked.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 10:37 am
Posted on 2/28/18 at 10:40 am to lsufan1971
quote:
My clients query NCIC all day long. Probably do over 100K a day. There is no query return for NICS data. I have clients in 18 states and you can't query NICS data from any of those states. There isn't a query available for it because it doesn't exist.
You’re not understanding what I am saying at all. The query return is APRROVE or DENY. I would hope your clients get that or else you’d never sell guns.
The query SUBMISSION and CALL is the information and request you give over the phone. That has to be submitted and tracked in several decentralized locations just to even process. How is one entity going to “delete” the data from the request across several different databases of which they have no legal ownership?
And yes - WE can’t query the specifics of the NICS database obviously but that doesn’t preclude the data from being able to be queried by approved users. If data exists, it can always be queried by someone.
I’m in charge of a lot of sensitive data you can’t query legally. Does that mean it doesn’t exist and I can’t see it, or if an approved higher up requests it, it can’t be retrieved? Obviously not.
This post was edited on 2/28/18 at 10:45 am
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