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re: Much Needed Clarity Regarding the Pope and the Recent Document Regarding Blessings

Posted on 1/1/24 at 8:55 pm to
Posted by FooManChoo
Member since Dec 2012
46845 posts
Posted on 1/1/24 at 8:55 pm to
quote:

Picking nits with perceived inconsistencies with the magisterium when “Prot doctrine” differs from sect to sect, town to town, and congregation to congregation is a mood. Prot doctrine just seems to boil down to “Catholics = bad”.
Not at all. "Prot" doctrine boils down to "what is the most faithful understanding of the Scriptures". We might disagree on mostly minor issues, but the intent should always be trying to understand what God has given us in His word, as it is the only infallible rule for faith and life.

But more to your point: the reason why some of us are picking nits with the magisterium is precisely because we're trying to show a double standard. Catholics look at confusion, lack of clarity, and lack of unity in churches that subscribe to sola scriptura as an evidence that the doctrine is not true while substituting a different standard that also produces confusion, lack of clarity, and lack of unity in the RCC regarding doctrines.

I'd suggest not continuing to press disunity in Protestantism as a criticism against sola scriptura.


quote:

Just the other day, a poster here was talking about how if they didn’t like what their preacher said, they’d just vote him out or move. WILD WEST.
I didn't see that, but it depends on the actual reasoning. If the pastor is teaching heresy and/or neglecting to faithfully preach the gospel of Jesus Christ, administer the sacraments, or execute church discipline, then the poster would be correct to seek some sort of change. It is better to remove yourself from a false church than to remain unified with a place that will drag your soul to hell. Jesus taught that it's better to cut off your hand or cut out your eye than to allow the to drag you to hell. The same is true of a false church.

Now, if the poster was simply being picky and wanting preaching that conforms entirely to his preferences and beliefs in every respect even if it is a faithful church, then I'd suggest a different approach.

quote:

But imagine having the balls or the gall to belittle or cast aspersions on the Blessed Mother. Just unconscionable.
There's no reason to belittle Mary just like there's no reason to belittle Sarah, Rebecca, or Ruth. All of those women of the faith received blessings from God and were used to bring about the incarnation of Jesus Christ.

Protestants simply refuse to make anyone but Jesus Christ the focus of our worship or veneration, because only He was perfect and only He is worthy of such worship and veneration as God.
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71135 posts
Posted on 1/1/24 at 9:04 pm to
quote:

What about the biblical narrative?



What biblical narrative are you talking about?

quote:

Matthew and John reference Jesus' brothers and sisters. In Galatians 1:19, Paul refers to James as "the" Lord's brother (using the definite article).

Then there's the Jewish historian, Josephus, who mentions that James is the Lord's brother, too.

I'd say that's sufficient evidence that predates the later traditions of men.



Only if you fail to understand the Greek in which Josephus and the gospel writers used.

This problem emerges in understanding the meaning of the word "brother." In the original text of the gospel, we find the Greek word adelphos, meaning "brothers," used. However, adelphos does not just mean blood brothers born of the same parents. Rather, adelphos was used to describe brothers not born of the same parents, like a half-brother or step-brother.

The confusion originates in Hebrew and Aramaic, the languages of most of the original Old Testament texts and of Christ. In these languages, no special word existed for cousin, nephew or aunt, half-brother or half-sister, or step-brother or step-sister. When the Old Testament was translated into Greek and the New Testament written in Greek, the word adelphos was used to capture all of these meanings for male relatives.

Interestingly, the Orthodox Churches solve this problem over brothers and sisters by speculating that St. Joseph was a widower who had other children before he married Mary. These brothers and sisters would really then be half-brothers and half-sisters. Perhaps this notion is why St. Joseph sometimes appears elderly in paintings.

quote:

Not according to the Bible.


The above is more than adequate to prove your assertion wrong.

quote:

Catholics look to Tradition as the supreme rule for the faith by using it to define and interpret everything else, including God's word, while Protestants look to the Bible as the final arbiter of truth.



Wrong again, I'm afraid. The Catholic Church relies on THREE things as to its supreme rule of faith: Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition, and the Magisterium. We look to Sacred Scripture for the Word of God, Sacred Tradition to see how the earliest Christians interpreted that Word, and the Magisterium to rule on doctrine and dogma based on Scripture and Tradition.

The main problem for Protestants is they rely on their own personal interpretation of Scripture (or their pastor's) and if they don't like what they're hearing they go off and form their own church based on their reading of a passage in scripture. It's probably why there are dozens of major Protestant dominations with hundreds (even thousands) of subsets all teaching something a little different and all claiming to be guided by the Holy Spirit.
This post was edited on 1/1/24 at 9:10 pm
Posted by MemphisGuy
Germantown, TN
Member since Nov 2023
14650 posts
Posted on 1/1/24 at 9:06 pm to
quote:

having the balls or the gall to belittle or cast aspersions on the Blessed Mother.

This literally did NOT happen. Not one single person in any way, shape, form or fashion belittled or cast any sort of aspersion on Mary.
Posted by CatholicLSUDude
Member since Aug 2018
1036 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 4:36 am to
quote:

But more to your point: the reason why some of us are picking nits with the magisterium is precisely because we're trying to show a double standard. Catholics look at confusion, lack of clarity, and lack of unity in churches that subscribe to sola scriptura as an evidence that the doctrine is not true while substituting a different standard that also produces confusion, lack of clarity, and lack of unity in the RCC regarding doctrines.

I'd suggest not continuing to press disunity in Protestantism as a criticism against sola scriptura.


I don't think you get to just suggest that Catholics stop pressing on the most glaring weakness of sola scriptura.

What you are calling "confusion, lack of clarity, and lack of unity in the RCC" (1) does not undermine Church's teaching authority as stated by the Church and (2 - more importantly) is absolutely minuscule when compared to confusion, lack of clarity, and lack of unity that exists among protestants who hold to sola scriptura. And it's very fair for Catholics to point it out. The only, logical end of sola scriptura is what we see in Protestantism today: disunity. Because, like it or not, scripture taken in a vacuum can and will be interpreted in many ways. Again, I point to modern adherents of sola scriptura as proof of this.
This post was edited on 1/2/24 at 4:42 am
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71135 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 8:39 am to
quote:

The only, logical end of sola scriptura is what we see in Protestantism today: disunity. Because, like it or not, scripture taken in a vacuum can and will be interpreted in many ways. Again, I point to modern adherents of sola scriptura as proof of this.


100% this.

It's one of the reasons why they have started to uphold the idea of an "invisible Church" composed of the entire body of believers, all of whom are guided by the Holy Spirit and under the leadership of Jesus Christ who reigns over the Church in Heaven. However, that still doesn't confront the problem at hand. The Holy Spirit is supposed to be infallible and unable to lead believers into error. Yet we find all of these different Christian denominations disagreeing on what Baptism is, what the Eucharist is, on what day we are supposed to worship, and even what is necessary for salvation.
Posted by Squirrelmeister
Member since Nov 2021
3691 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 8:42 am to
“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful.”

-Lucius Annaeus Seneca
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71135 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 8:49 am to
quote:

“Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false...



Yeah...try reading Aquinas and get back to me on the bolded. He single-handedly reshaped Western philosophy with his Summa theologiae. Not since Aristotle have we seen such an important advance in that particular field.
Posted by Squirrelmeister
Member since Nov 2021
3691 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 9:27 am to
“Men create gods after their own image, not only with regard to their form but with regard to their mode of life.”
-Aristotle

Do you believe that the Bible as we know it is inspired and is 100% correct? If so, which English version do you consider correct and “the truth”? Just curious.
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71135 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 9:42 am to
quote:

Do you believe that the Bible as we know it is inspired and is 100% correct? If so, which English version do you consider correct and “the truth”? Just curious.



Do I believe it to be inspired? Yes. Do I believe it to be 100% correct? No. Take the New Testament manuscripts we have from the Roman period. There are deviations in grammar and wording found throughout, and there is even an "extended" ending to the Gospel of Mark in some manuscripts. However, there is nothing we have from those earliest manuscripts that would indicate major changes in the text. Certainly nothing that would impact theology.
This post was edited on 1/2/24 at 9:44 am
Posted by Squirrelmeister
Member since Nov 2021
3691 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 10:08 am to
quote:

an "extended" ending to the Gospel of Mark in some manuscripts.


Ahh the ending of the snake handling wackos.

The women ran away in fear and told no one…

And then they told everyone!

quote:

However, there is nothing we have from those earliest manuscripts that would indicate major changes in the text. Certainly nothing that would impact theology.


How do you react when you find things in scripture that contradict? Stories that tell the events in a way that cannot be reconciled? Doesn’t bother you? Do you think the original stories were all correct, and that they’ve been corrupted over time by copying?

ETA: there’s at least 5 different endings to the gospel of Mark out of the known manuscripts.

Jeremiah 8:8
quote:

“How can you say, ‘We are wise, and the law of the LORD is with us’? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie.


This post was edited on 1/2/24 at 10:16 am
Posted by Guntoter1
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2020
1751 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 10:31 am to
quote:

How do you react when you find things in scripture that contradict? Stories that tell the events in a way that cannot be reconciled?


Because they don’t really contradict.
Example of a true story told by two diff people who both witnessed the event.

My version: last year my cousin shot an 8 point buck.

My cousins version.
This hunting season I shot a deer.
It had two broken shoulders but didn’t die. I had to drive to the store to buy more bullets.
Two hrs later it took two more shots to finish the deer.
It scored 135 Boone and Crocker as a 7 point.

Both stories are 100% true. But a casual reader who knows nothing about deer hunting would not think so.
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71135 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 10:52 am to
quote:

How do you react when you find things in scripture that contradict? Stories that tell the events in a way that cannot be reconciled? Doesn’t bother you?


No, it doesn't. I'll tell you why. On April 27, 2011, tens of thousands of people watched as a tornado plowed through Tuscaloosa, Alabama. I was one of them. That night, as I listened to people talk about what they saw, there were a number of people who could have swore that the tornado turned and missed Bryant-Denny Stadium at the last possible second. Others saw it jump over the stadium. The only problem with that story is that the tornado passed more than a mile to the south of the stadium and thus never had the opportunity to jump, much less dodge, the stadium. However, the one thing in the story that could not be denied: there was a tornado that went through Tuscaloosa on April 27, 2011.

Eyewitness testimony will always have contradictions because human beings are not always 100% reliable in their recollection of events. Especially when those events are stress-inducing or life-altering. The human mind sometimes plays tricks on us.

In the case of the gospels, yeah...there are contradictions in the sequence of events as it relates to Good Friday and Easter Sunday. However, what everyone agrees on for those two days are the following: Christ was crucified on the cross and died that Friday afternoon. On Sunday morning, his tomb was found to be empty and numerous (perhaps dozens) of people reported to see the risen Jesus.

Posted by Squirrelmeister
Member since Nov 2021
3691 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 1:12 pm to
quote:

In the case of the gospels, yeah...there are contradictions in the sequence of events


Quite refreshing that a believer would admit this. There’s too many kooks on this site that cannot form a logical argument because they claim there’s no contradictions.

quote:

Eyewitness testimony will always have contradictions because human beings are not always 100% reliable in their recollection of events. Especially when those events are stress-inducing or life-altering. The human mind sometimes plays tricks on us.


That’s true. I’d argue though that the gospels, even the whole Bible, is of the genre that does not include eyewitness testimony, though I understand that is probably what you believe. Take the gospel of Mark - the ending where the women run off and tell no one because they were afraid… if they didn’t tell anyone, who wrote the story about what happened? In my opinion the scriptures are not historical and they aren’t even written in the genre of a historical document.
Posted by Guntoter1
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2020
1751 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 1:20 pm to
quote:

In my opinion the scriptures are not historical and they aren’t even written in the genre of a historical document.


Not historical???
They were all written in the first century and they are 4 independent accounts yet they all agree on much of the content.
Also many atheist scholars disagree with you as well
Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62079 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 1:22 pm to
quote:

The only, logical end of sola scriptura is what we see in Protestantism today: disunity. Because, like it or not, scripture taken in a vacuum can and will be interpreted in many ways. Again, I point to modern adherents of sola scriptura as proof of this.



Are you aware that it’s fallible men who deciphers and construct Catholic theology?!
This post was edited on 1/2/24 at 1:22 pm
Posted by Squirrelmeister
Member since Nov 2021
3691 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 1:26 pm to
quote:

Because they don’t really contradict.


Is it just to punish the children for the sins of their parents, or is it not just?
How did David meet King Saul?
Who killed Goliath of Gath?
When Goliath was killed, was David a young boy, or was he an old man past his prime?
Who incited David to take a census of Israel and Judah? Was it the LORD or was it Satan?
When Jesus sent the disciples out to heal and preach, did they take a staff or did they not take a staff?
Was Jesus killed in the day before, or the day of the Passover?
How many men (or angels) greeted the followers who entered Jesus’ tomb?
Did Moses and Abraham each meet with god face to face and have dinner with him, or has no one ever seen God, or if anyone did look at God would they immediately die?
Should Christians be circumcised, or is following the Torah not necessary?
Posted by Guntoter1
Baton Rouge
Member since Nov 2020
1751 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 1:36 pm to
You mis understand my point.
I am not a literalist

You seem to have invested a lot of time trying prove something wrong that Catholics never believed in. In the first place.
No Catholic would ever disagree with your point.
But your point doesn’t prove the Bible is not historical lol
This post was edited on 1/2/24 at 1:40 pm
Posted by RollTide1987
Baltimore, MD
Member since Nov 2009
71135 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 2:17 pm to
quote:

Are you aware that it’s fallible men who deciphers and construct Catholic theology?!


Are you aware that Jesus Christ left His Church in the hands of fallible men when he gave the reins to Peter and the Apostles?
Posted by CatholicLSUDude
Member since Aug 2018
1036 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 2:29 pm to
quote:

Are you aware that it’s fallible men who deciphers and construct Catholic theology?!


Yes.

Fallible men *with Christ's teaching authority* to whom he promised the Holy Spirit would come.

Posted by Revelator
Member since Nov 2008
62079 posts
Posted on 1/2/24 at 2:50 pm to
quote:

Fallible men *with Christ's teaching authority* to whom he promised the Holy Spirit would come.



The Bible says all believers have the Holy Spirit
This post was edited on 1/2/24 at 2:54 pm
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