re: Moral objections against vigilantism?

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One of those exceptions is murder. And it goes all the way back to Noah in Genesis 9. The only way to purge innocent blood is to take the life of the murderer.

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Even the punishment for murder wasn't unregulated revenge killings. If there is a government to enforce the law, we should leave it up to the government to enforce it.

I'm a proponent of as many people as are able and willing to carry a gun or some other self-defense tool. Defend yourself if you must, but don't seek out someone to kill for the sake of justice.

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But we are the ones who give the civil magistrate the authority to do so? How can we give them the authority if we don't possess the authority ourselves?

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All authority comes from God and we are supposed to submit to Him in all things first and foremost. Where we have "authority" to govern the government, it must be within the realm of submission to God first. If we have the ability to define justice in our country, for example, it should be defined based on God's definition of justice, and then we authorize the civil magistrate to carry that out using law enforcement officers, courts, and executioners/prisons.

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Not trolling, it's something I've never understood. As Christians we are to submit to the civil authority. Fine. Where is the line? If the civil authority deems it illegal to be Christians, we wouldn't submit to that. So there has to be a line. If the civil magistrate says we won't prosecute those who murder you, we are supposed to submit to that? If the civil magistrate says it will not punish or barely punish those who abuse women and children, we are supposed to submit to that?

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God's law is supreme, so we must always obey God even if we are told not to by other authorities we are supposed to submit to. The civil magistrate has a derived authority from Christ, who is King of Kings and Lord of Lords. If the civil magistrate commands us to break God's law, then they are in violation of their mandate and must not be submitted to in that regard.

If the civil magistrate says that they won't prosecute murderers, then I'd suggest everyone do what they can to protect themselves. Get guns, knives, or other weapons to fend off attackers. Live or travel in groups.

There is a difference between defending yourself from a murderer who would otherwise not be brought to justice and seeking to impose justice on a murderer after the fact, which is what vigilantism does.

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All authority comes from God and we are supposed to submit to Him in all things first and foremost. Where we have "authority" to govern the government, it must be within the realm of submission to God first

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We are the authority under God in this country. The Constitution is clear about that.

God said purge the land of murderers. He didn't say hold a weeks long trial with rebuttal witnesses or give the accused reasonable doubt.

Don't claim to follow God's guidance and then push for extra biblical requirements. You keep claiming authority from scripture but I don't see a lot of actual Bible in your rebuttal. And I'm willing to listen to those, but you're going to have to do better than the Bible says Truth, Justice, and the American way.

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All authority comes from God and we are supposed to submit to Him in all things first and foremost. Where we have "authority" to govern the government, it must be within the realm of submission to God first. If we have the ability to define justice in our country, for example, it should be defined based on God's definition of justice, and then we authorize the civil magistrate to carry that out using law enforcement officers, courts, and executioners/prisons.

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Which is completely defeated by a corrupt civil magistrate that neither submits to God's law, or the law and authority given to them by the people. Do you think that it is God's will that criminals not receive punishment or justice on earth when that is the case?

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If the civil magistrate says that they won't prosecute murderers, then I'd suggest everyone do what they can to protect themselves. Get guns, knives, or other weapons to fend off attackers. Live or travel in groups.

There is a difference between defending yourself from a murderer who would otherwise not be brought to justice and seeking to impose justice on a murderer after the fact, which is what vigilantism does.

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And then bear the responsibility as the criminal continues victimize the people with no justice even being sought?

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We are the authority under God in this country. The Constitution is clear about that.

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But only in the sense that we elect our representatives and may rise up against that government if it becomes tyrannical. We don't have the authority to not submit to a lawful arrest, or to choose to disobey laws that we simply don't personally agree with.

We elect representatives to act on our behalf. Those representatives make and enforce laws, and we are supposed to submit to that.

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God said purge the land of murderers. He didn't say hold a weeks long trial with rebuttal witnesses or give the accused reasonable doubt.

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God didn't specify exactly how executions must be done (regarding trials and appeals, etc.), but there are principles given. During the time of Moses, Moses and appointed judges would hear cases, make judgments, and determine a punishment according to God. In Numbers 15:32-36, we have an example of someone who broke the law of the Sabbath and was stoned to death. The process involved witnesses taking the man into custody and handing him over to the court (Moses and Aaron) for judgment. The execution was carried out by the entire congregation of people that were there. That looks different from how Rome executed prisoners, but the principles are the same: Arrest was made for a suspected crime, the accused was taken to a judge, the judge heard the case based on evidence (testimony), and the judge made a decision of guilt or innocence, then if guilty, the person was handed over to an executioner to be put to death.

And yes, there was an effort made to understand the truth of the matter and to provide justice. The very chapter that speaks of sanctuary cities speaks of a requirement of a testimony of two or three witnesses to a matter, and what is to be done to a malicious witness (they are to receive the same punishment sought for the one they were wrongfully accusing). They were to be taken to a judge (the elders of the city, in this case) to decide the matter. (Deut. 19:15-21).

There is liberty for governments to decide how justice must be carried out, but there is supposed to be a presumption of innocence. In addition to the Deut. 19 passage I quoted, additional passages include Numbers 35:30 and Deuteronomy 17:6 regarding the requirement of multiple witnesses to attest to a crime. This requirement assumes that there must be evidence of guilt before a sentence is passed, not just a single accusation. That same principle is carried over into the New Testament in places like Matthew 18:16 when submitting to Church discipline/government.

We also have commands to not perform injustice, such as Exodus 23:6-8, "You shall not pervert the justice due to your poor in his lawsuit. Keep far from a false charge, and do not kill the innocent and righteous, for I will not acquit the wicked. And you shall take no bribe, for a bribe blinds the clear-sighted and subverts the cause of those who are in the right.

I don't know where you get this idea that God supports some notion of wild west vigilantism where anyone can take revenge on anyone else for any perceived wrong. One reason why vigilantism is wrong is because there is an assumption of guilt, and the person aggrieved becomes the judge, jury, and executioner, even if they are in the wrong. That is not justice, but a perversion of justice.

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Don't claim to follow God's guidance and then push for extra biblical requirements. You keep claiming authority from scripture but I don't see a lot of actual Bible in your rebuttal. And I'm willing to listen to those, but you're going to have to do better than the Bible says Truth, Justice, and the American way.

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Here are some New Testament passages on submission to authorities that make it clear that we should submit to their authority, which is derived from God. There are instances where we are commanded to disobey for the sake of obeying God (Acts 5:27-29), but unless that is the case, we are supposed to submit.


Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God. Therefore whoever resists the authorities resists what God has appointed, and those who resist will incur judgment. For rulers are not a terror to good conduct, but to bad. Would you have no fear of the one who is in authority? Then do what is good, and you will receive his approval, for he is God's servant for your good. But if you do wrong, be afraid, for he does not bear the sword in vain. For he is the servant of God, an avenger who carries out God's wrath on the wrongdoer. Therefore one must be in subjection, not only to avoid God's wrath but also for the sake of conscience. For because of this you also pay taxes, for the authorities are ministers of God, attending to this very thing. Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed. -Rom. 13:1-7

Tell us, then, what you think. Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar, or not?” But Jesus, aware of their malice, said, “Why put me to the test, you hypocrites? Show me the coin for the tax.” And they brought him a denarius. And Jesus said to them, “Whose likeness and inscription is this?” They said, “Caesar's.” Then he said to them, “Therefore render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.” -Matt. 22:17-21

When they came to Capernaum, the collectors of the two-drachma tax went up to Peter and said, “Does your teacher not pay the tax?” He said, “Yes.” And when he came into the house, Jesus spoke to him first, saying, “What do you think, Simon? From whom do kings of the earth take toll or tax? From their sons or from others?” And when he said, “From others,” Jesus said to him, “Then the sons are free. However, not to give offense to them, go to the sea and cast a hook and take the first fish that comes up, and when you open its mouth you will find a shekel. Take that and give it to them for me and for yourself.” -Matt. 17:24-27

Remind them to be submissive to rulers and authorities, to be obedient, to be ready for every good work -Titus 3:1

Be subject for the Lord's sake to every human institution, whether it be to the emperor as supreme, or to governors as sent by him to punish those who do evil and to praise those who do good. For this is the will of God, that by doing good you should put to silence the ignorance of foolish people. Live as people who are free, not using your freedom as a cover-up for evil, but living as servants of God. Honor everyone. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the emperor. -1 Pet. 2:13-17


I hope that satisfies your need for specific Bible references.

I have no problem with self-defense, or even out-right vigilantism.

It can be argued that our elected officials and law enforcement departments are derelict in their duties and have ceded all responsibilities.

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We elect representatives to act on our behalf. Those representatives make and enforce laws, and we are supposed to submit to that.

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And what is God's will when they abrogate that responsibility and authority that we give them? Surely you can't be saying that it is God's will that we sit on our hands as the powerful, well-connected, and or preferred people victimize society without consequence.

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do most of you have a moral revulsion to vigilantism?

To what degree?

Do you shed a tear when you see a repeat offender receiving instant karma while in the commission of a crime?

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I mean if you're there and can stop a literal crime that is a danger to someone else or their property it's one thing. We're far more likely to see situations like the dipshits in Georgia that murdered that guy

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And what is God's will when they abrogate that responsibility and authority that we give them? Surely you can't be saying that it is God's will that we sit on our hands as the powerful, well-connected, and or preferred people victimize society without consequence.

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Christians are commanded to take a lot of punishment and even persecution for the sake of obedience to God. "Turn the other cheek" may have been specific to an offense rather than a crime, but Jesus and the Apostles preached self-sacrifice, long suffering, patience, and reliance on God for vengeance and justice in addition to submission to authorities in all spheres of life, including the government, so long as we are not commanded to sin, ourselves.

I'll repeat again that there is a difference between seeking revenge (vigilantism) and seeking justice (through the proper courts and authorities). Revenge belongs to God. And again, there is also a difference between revenge and self-defense. Self-defense is immediate and seeks to preserve life of self and neighbor in the here and now, while vigilantism seeks revenge in the future with the intent to take a life when the immediate threat has gone.