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Started By
Message
re: Milo on Jehovah’s Witness, Christian Scientists, Mormons, etc
Posted on 12/5/24 at 4:56 pm to TankBoys32
Posted on 12/5/24 at 4:56 pm to TankBoys32
quote:
And those same councils have made heretical decisions themselves over the years.
Care to give us some examples?
1
Posted on 12/5/24 at 4:56 pm to Guntoter1
quote:Thank you for accepting the clarification. I'm fine with saying that the Church has accepted and received what God provided. That doesn't mean the Church is infallible, though, which is the real issue.
The Bible comes from God through the church. The one holy Catholic and apostolic church.
quote:It is a sacrament that Christ gave to the Church, yes. It is administered by ordained gospel ministers/elders within the context of the worship of God. However, the sign and seal of the Eucharist is a means of grace given for the Church to point them to Christ as their savior, not to point them back to the Church. Rome confuses the body and the head of Christ.
The Eucharist comes to us through the church.
quote:Forgiveness comes to us through faith in Jesus Christ, and that faith receives the saving forgiveness merited by Christ. Jesus forgives sins, not the Church.
Forgiveness comes to us through the church.
quote:Not all. Saving grace comes from God through His Spirit, who regenerates man and gives him the gift of faith that receives the pardon Christ provides through His death.
All graces come to all of us through the church.
quote:I agree, and yet Christ's way is given to us through the Scriptures, not through the decrees of men apart from the Scriptures.
Christ founded a church to fulfill all of his promises. But we must do it his way not our way.
Posted on 12/5/24 at 4:57 pm to Guntoter1
Protestant is an insanely broad and generalized term. For every whack woke church there are plenty who are just as devout and knowledgeable as any Catholic could be. Don’t be ignorant and clump us all together. Any you want to talk about causing issues look at your whack current pope
Posted on 12/5/24 at 4:58 pm to Stitches
quote:
Every single group which was determined to be heretical in an ecumenical council did
Saint Paul said. “I work out my salvation with fear and trembling, for fear of after having preached the faith to others that I myself may be disqualified.”
Can you imagine being so arrogant as to adhere to the Protestant belief of Once saved always saved.
Saint Paul did not know if he would be worthy of salvation but every Bible believing prot. Is guaranteed heaven.
Posted on 12/5/24 at 5:00 pm to FooManChoo
quote:And what authority does your Protestant church have?
First, ceding that the Church has some authority is not a concession towards Rome because there is a big difference between having some authority and being the final authority in practice.
You’re misrepresenting the Catholic Church at every turn. Example:
quote:
She does, in practice, though she won't say that.
You do the same thing with “Catholics worship Mary”. I think you’re a smart, decent man by the posts I’ve seen of yours on this site. When keep saying Catholics/Catholic church say “X” and they repeatedly explain how they don’t say “X”, but you continue to insist otherwise, there’s no more discussion to be had.
Catholic doctrine is not that it holds itself as the final authority equal to God. It’s that they have authority on earth when it comes to matters of God. They have this authority through Apostolic succession and 2,000 years of church tradition.
How many Protestant denominations are there and they all interpret the Bible differently. Who is the authority to interpret what the Bible actually means? You? Me?
Posted on 12/5/24 at 5:00 pm to Stitches
The Catholic Church has never once held a belief or committed an action questionable to God? Indulgences, unjustified crusades, persecution, literally burnt a man at the stake for converting the Bible in to English (William Tyndale).. and in the modern era your priests raping children and the church covering it up… Come on.
Posted on 12/5/24 at 5:05 pm to FooManChoo
I'm not necessarily trying to lead you anywhere. Its more about dialogue for me. I do know this book will give you an understanding more than anything you've ever read. ??
It's not a book to try to convince you. It's his story of what convinced him. It's personally been a bridge for many different people from different religions. Conversations were much different, and more productive after reading it.
Dr Hahn is extremely intelligent & well versed.
I think you'd enjoy it, but to each their own. Thx for your thoughtful response.
It's not a book to try to convince you. It's his story of what convinced him. It's personally been a bridge for many different people from different religions. Conversations were much different, and more productive after reading it.
Dr Hahn is extremely intelligent & well versed.
I think you'd enjoy it, but to each their own. Thx for your thoughtful response.
Posted on 12/5/24 at 5:15 pm to Guntoter1
quote:St. Paul also wrote Romans 8:28-30 which says that those whom God has foreknown, He glorified. Meaning, that there's a chain of events that happens, and those whom God saves, He will keep until the end.
Saint Paul said. “I work out my salvation with fear and trembling, for fear of after having preached the faith to others that I myself may be disqualified.”
Can you imagine being so arrogant as to adhere to the Protestant belief of Once saved always saved.
Saint Paul did not know if he would be worthy of salvation but every Bible believing prot. Is guaranteed heaven.
Posted on 12/5/24 at 5:15 pm to TankBoys32
quote:
Protestant is an insanely broad and generalized term. For every whack woke church there are plenty who are just as devout and knowledgeable as any Catholic could be. Don’t be ignorant and clump us all together. Any you want to talk about causing issues look at your whack current pope
Truth brother.
I have been very blunt today in my response to the attack on The faith of Catholics and I refuse to be nice anymore.
The Protestant theology is intellectually bankrupt. (Sorry if I offend you. You seem sincere in your pursuit of the way)
But there is only one church, one lord, one faith.
Don’t be the rich man who walked away sad or the group who rejected Christ to his face and said this teaching is too hard, who can understand it?
Many are called few are chosen.
Put on the robe washed in the blood of Christ and enter the Catholic Church.
To quote Saint Paul. “ Stay with the ship or you can not be saved.”
Posted on 12/5/24 at 5:25 pm to SirWinston
quote:
Protestants and Evangelicals (of which I am marginally one) need to stop demonizing Catholics.
Catholics are one of the driving forces behind MAGA and populism. Most of the Never Trumpers are Evangelicals and Protestants.
I am a Protestant and believe strongly in evangelizing as Christ instructs us to do so, and to speak against unscriptural religious doctrine or false teachings using scripture as the basis for such is one thing because God’s word is the ultimate authority for what is correct and incorrect, not any human being, but it should never be weaponized to attack people, and neither should we in the manner in which Milo just did. That was absolutely awful, and besides all that, the Holy Spirit is who convicts, not mankind.
Personally, I don’t want your eyes and ears on me and what I think, but what God thinks and says in His word. What I think means absolutely nothing, and cannot save anyone. What God says is transformative, and it’s He who does the saving, and everything really, so if we’re going to have a discussion, let’s keep it confined to scripture alone. That’s it. If we’re going to measure something, let’s weigh it according to scripture alone. That is the authority of authorities here, not what anyone thinks, even “Milo”
Posted on 12/5/24 at 5:33 pm to Guntoter1
The way I look at is God going to be more pleased if I follow him and turn others to Christ or if I went to a specific church and got more church members to that church. I think humans over complicate the process. I guess we’ll find out when it’s all said and done
Posted on 12/5/24 at 5:34 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
St. Paul also wrote Romans 8:28-30 which says that those whom God has foreknown, He glorified. Meaning, that there's a chain of events that happens, and those whom God saves, He will keep until the end.
Yea. Ok. So you include yourself in Gods foreknown group?
You make my point. You very self assured of your salvation.
Good luck with that. I didn’t see your name listed in that passage.
My understanding of Christ teaching is VERY different than yours.
Mine is Catholic. Yours is Prot.
Mine goes back to Christ. Yours goes back to the reformation.
Your problem is that you see the failings of the sinfull people that run the Catholic Church as a reflection on the church itself.
You can not separate the two.
The irony is that it is you who do not fully trust Christ because you can not accept his way. His way is hard. It is difficult. It is not logical in your mind.
This is why you reject the simple clear meaning aid scripture.
Posted on 12/5/24 at 5:37 pm to StrongOffer
quote:It has the authority to bind and loose; to receive into membership and to exclude from membership. It has the authority to administer the sacraments. It has the authority to minister the gospel of Jesus Christ to the nations in His name and by His authority.
And what authority does your Protestant church have?
quote:That isn't a misrepresentation. It's a logical conclusion, and I described exactly how I came to that conclusion. I'll repeat:
You’re misrepresenting the Catholic Church at every turn. Example:quote:
She does, in practice, though she won't say that.
Rome teaches there are three equal authorities, the written apostolic tradition (the Bible), the oral apostolic tradition, and the church magisterium. The magisterium has the authority (she claims) to define sacred Scripture and to interpret sacred Scripture, and she has the authority to define oral tradition and to interpret oral tradition. If Rome has the authority to do these things, she functionally is the highest authority, being authoritative over the other two since she decides what is what.
quote:I call it like I see it. Prayer is a religious act of worship. In Scripture, all mentions of prayer are religious and worshipful in nature, whether they are prayers to God or to false gods/idols. The Scriptures don't treat prayer as mere communication, like one living person talking to another. Yet, this is what Catholics do to Mary. They pray to Mary and the saints. They engage in religious devotion to human beings that are not God.
You do the same thing with “Catholics worship Mary”. I think you’re a smart, decent man by the posts I’ve seen of yours on this site. When keep saying Catholics/Catholic church say “X” and they repeatedly explain how they don’t say “X”, but you continue to insist otherwise, there’s no more discussion to be had.
It goes way beyond that for Mary, though, because not only has Rome sanctioned such worship to Mary (though I agree it is not called such), Rome has granted Mary divine attributes and titles that no one but Christ has. Many faithful Catholics actually prefer to go to Mary because they believe Jesus is too harsh and that He needs the loving influence of Mary.
The issue isn't whether or not Catholics worship Mary, but whether or not they admit to it (they don't). If you took all of the veneration for Mary and replaced Mary with Baal, it would be indistinguishable from actual idolatry found in the Old Testament.
And I say this not to be mean. I don't have antagonism against the average Catholic adherent, because I believe they have been deceived. I do have antagonism against Catholic leaders and teachers who know very well what they believe and lead others astray.
quote:I'm quite aware of the claims. What I'm talking about is what happens in reality, in practice.
Catholic doctrine is not that it holds itself as the final authority equal to God. It’s that they have authority on earth when it comes to matters of God. They have this authority through Apostolic succession and 2,000 years of church tradition.
quote:God is the final authority over His very word. Having the freedom of interpretation doesn't mean we have the freedom or warrant to misinterpret God's word. It just means that no other man has the authority to bind the consciences of others; that authority belongs to Christ alone.
How many Protestant denominations are there and they all interpret the Bible differently. Who is the authority to interpret what the Bible actually means? You? Me?
And please understand that the authority of Rome doesn't mean Rome is right, only that she cannot be perceived as wrong. There has been disagreement within Roman Catholicism since the Council of Trent, and the decrees did not mean that all Catholics were suddenly unified in faith on those decrees. It meant that there was no room for debate afterwards. The authority was the authority to silence and to force unity through preventing disagreement.
Posted on 12/5/24 at 5:51 pm to TankBoys32
quote:
Don’t be ignorant and clump us all together. Any you want to talk about causing issues look at your whack current pope
I would highly recommend you read 1 John 2. As a former Protestant converted Catholic, I find this attitude of hate way more prevalent with Protestants. I would suggest open your mind. Read The Fathers of the church. There is only one true church that’s been present for over 2000 years. Most Protestant churches have been in the last 150.
Posted on 12/5/24 at 5:53 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
It has the authority to bind and loose;
Whoa
Your church has the authority granted to Peter as head of the Church.
To bind and to Loosen.
You claim this authority for yourself as member of your church.
Are you crazy.
Do you not understand what you are saying?
The mask has finally come off
This post was edited on 12/5/24 at 6:00 pm
Posted on 12/5/24 at 6:08 pm to FooManChoo
quote:Then you or I would have the same authority. That position is why we have so many different denominations. Someone has to be correct. Ex: Jesus can’t be born of a virgin and not born of a virgin. My position is backed by 2,000 years of doctrine and tradition that can be traced back to Jesus. Yours can be traced back to a man who thought you knew more than the Church.
It has the authority to bind and loose; to receive into membership and to exclude from membership. It has the authority to administer the sacraments.
quote:This is the Catholic position. It isn’t that we say what is what. It’s that the Church is guided by the Holy Spirit. We can say that because we can actually trace our roots all the way to Christ.
God is the final authority over His very word. Having the freedom of interpretation doesn't mean we have the freedom or warrant to misinterpret God's word
We aren’t gonna change each other’s mind but I urge you to actually listen when people say you are misrepresenting their position. Ignoring it and saying you know their own position better than them is extremely arrogant.
I’ll pray for you and kindly ask that you pray for me. Be careful not to worship me tho.
This post was edited on 12/5/24 at 6:10 pm
Posted on 12/5/24 at 6:09 pm to faraway
You sir are an anti Catholic bigot parading his ignorance for all to see.
Catholics do not worship Mary, you ignoramus. They venerate her just as her Son, Jesus does.
Now, not all sola scriptura believers are anti Catholic bigots, but most anti Catholics are sola scriptura advocates.
Regardless, explain why Mary’s first born child had to give his mother to a follower for protection. Surly Jewish Law would have her second born son take care of her. Or why not another of her “many kids” YOU claim she had?
John 19:25-27
25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
quote:
worshipping a woman
Catholics do not worship Mary, you ignoramus. They venerate her just as her Son, Jesus does.
quote:
woman who had many kids
Now, not all sola scriptura believers are anti Catholic bigots, but most anti Catholics are sola scriptura advocates.
Regardless, explain why Mary’s first born child had to give his mother to a follower for protection. Surly Jewish Law would have her second born son take care of her. Or why not another of her “many kids” YOU claim she had?
John 19:25-27
25 Near the cross of Jesus stood his mother, his mother’s sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 26 When Jesus saw his mother there, and the disciple whom he loved standing nearby, he said to her, “Woman, here is your son,” 27 and to the disciple, “Here is your mother.” From that time on, this disciple took her into his home.
Posted on 12/5/24 at 6:24 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The issue isn't that you give honor to Mary, but that Rome attributes to Mary qualities that are reserved for Jesus Christ alone. As much as Mary was blessed among women, she was merely a woman. Jesus is the God-man, and He intercedes for us with God always. There is no reason why I should pray to anyone else when Jesus is interceding for me as my representative and mediator in Heaven. Jesus loves me as His bride more than any other natural relationships save for that of His love for God the Father and the Spirit, which they have had eternal communion with one another. If Mary were alive, I would ask her to pray for me like I would ask my biological mother to pray for me or my friend, but since she is in Heaven, I am not to pray to anyone except to God, since prayer is an act of worship, and worship should only be directed to God. I honor Mary, but I dishonor Christ if I take what belongs to Him and give it to Mary.
You just proved what I said in my first post was right. Us Catholics don’t judge other religions or the people who follow those faiths, whereas your faith and others seem to believe they have the power of God and judge another’s faith.
Posted on 12/5/24 at 6:27 pm to RescueT
Im good dog, nothing can convince me Catholicism is the way to go. Church history is too tarnished and it’s not even in logical in mind.
Like I said in 3 other posts the Lord will deal with me when my times comes. I guess I could be the holiest person in my lifetime but because I don’t bend the knee to your catholic doctrines I’m still flawed and not worthy
Like I said in 3 other posts the Lord will deal with me when my times comes. I guess I could be the holiest person in my lifetime but because I don’t bend the knee to your catholic doctrines I’m still flawed and not worthy
Posted on 12/5/24 at 6:29 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
The issue isn't that you give honor to Mary, but that Rome attributes to Mary qualities that are reserved for Jesus Christ alone. As much as Mary was blessed among women, she was merely a woman. Jesus is the God-man, and He intercedes for us with God always. There is no reason why I should pray to anyone else when Jesus is interceding for me as my representative and mediator in Heaven. Jesus loves me as His bride more than any other natural relationships save for that of His love for God the Father and the Spirit, which they have had eternal communion with one another. If Mary were alive, I would ask her to pray for me like I would ask my biological mother to pray for me or my friend, but since she is in Heaven, I am not to pray to anyone except to God, since prayer is an act of worship, and worship should only be directed to God. I honor Mary, but I dishonor Christ if I take what belongs to Him and give it to Mary
When did you and your faith give you the power of God? Only God can judge a person’s faith, check the scriptures!
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