re: Memo to all Christians who are struggling with the decision to vote for Trump

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I say all of this not to attack or disparage Foo

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I find that very hard to believe.

The fact of the matter--and it's something you seem unable to grasp no matter how many times you're confronted on this--is that politics and policies have inherent moral components to them, and it is entirely appropriate to speak of religion in terms of morality.

All policy and law is applying the force of government to some moral standard of what is "good" and "bad" in our society, and at the end of the day, it's only a matter of whose moral standard is being implemented. I'm arguing that Christians should seek godly representatives who will govern according to God's moral standard, not some secular humanistic standard.

Ironically, as you chastise me for bringing my religious convictions into the political discussion, you justify your vote for Trump by saying you are obligated to vote because of your religious beliefs as a Roman Catholic. That may be the case for you, but you're proving my point in that Christianity is not silent when it comes to politics, which is why I do engage in these discussions.

Foo,

You cannot vote for any President when you apply your religious doctrine to politicians.

Hell, you really can’t participate in any political happenings.

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So you are essentially saying that, in your opinion, everyone who votes for Trump is sinning because they are voting for a candidate who doesn't seek to honor God in all they do? Am I understanding you correctly?

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I'd rather speak to the positive side, which is seeking to honor Christ in our actions rather than doing what we do for pragmatic reasons.

Ultimately, yes, I believe that if Christians completely disregard Christ's honor in elections, then we are violating the command to do all things (including voting) for the glory of God.

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That's quite the high bar you've set

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It may be a high bar today, because over the past several decades Christians have simply not cared if their representatives are Christians any longer. It took nearly 200 years to get our first Roman Catholic President in JFK. In the past 15 years, we've had a Mormon as the GOP candidate and many are on the Vivek Ramaswamy train, even though he's a devout Hindu.

The bar I'm talking about seems high because Christians continue to lower the bar in terms of what they expect from their candidates, and we can't be ignorant to the fact that religious beliefs (or lack thereof) influence policy and action.

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and I honestly don't you you could have ever voted for ANYONE ever in the history of elections.

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I have. I have voted in every election that I have been able to participate in until about 2 years ago when I became convicted that I wasn't seeking God's glory in my vote as much as wanting to save my own skin by looking for a political savior. I was devastated when Trump lost in 2020, and it got me thinking about where my loyalties stood and if I was making an idol out of Trump and the Republican party rather than trusting in God in these matters.

There are Republicans out there that still proclaim their Christian commitments and live and govern consistently with those commitments, even if imperfectly. Instead of lowering the bar, I believe we should seek better candidates.

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Christians restoring brothers who are in sin to repentance

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Explain in detail how your vote for or against Trump restores him to the Christian brotherhood?

And then explain what sin is it that Trump is currently committing, that you will save him from by not voting for him?

Because thats THE HUGE part of those verses, doncha think?

It ultimately doesn't matter because Trump attracted many of us who like conservative (meaning limited government) political goals without having religion shoved down our throats. I couldn't care less what others do as long as they're not harming others.

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Explain in detail how your vote for or against Trump restores him to the Christian brotherhood?

And then explain what sin is it that Trump is currently committing, that you will save him from by not voting for him?

Because thats THE HUGE part of those verses, doncha think?

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I'm unable to do any of those things individually with my vote alone, but that wasn't really the point of what I was saying. You said his public profession of faith and public works were none of my business. I explained how such things are actually the business of Christians broadly, using principles from Scripture.

There is a concept of dissociation with professing Christians who are unrepentant. Matt. 18 speaks to this in terms of church discipline, and so does 1 Cor. 5. 2 Thess. 3 also speaks to not associating with a "brother" who is unrepentant, which is a form of Christian shunning of sorts. I think these principles are sufficient when discussing being associated with a professing Christian who is in unrepentant sin when it comes to the ballot box.

In addition, it doesn't matter if my vote calls him to repentance or restores him to Christian fellowship. My point is that he doesn't exhibit fruits of a faithful Christian and therefore I cannot in good conscience vote for him.

I've already provided a few sins that I believe he's committing by being tolerant of evil (abortion and homosexuality) and he is unrepentant of those things currently.

A real Christian is not struggling with who to vote for in this particular election. If you believe in God Trumpmis the only choice you have.

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You approach the issue from the standpoint of strict Calvinism, which is a minority Protestant sect that supports Theocracy as the preferred form of governance.

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Calvinism speaks to salvation (soteriology), not government. I'm a Reformed Christian, which includes a Calvinistic understanding of salvation.

Reformed Christians are a mixed bag on what is often called Theonomy, where the Old Testament government is promoted as the ideal for all Christian societies. I'm not a theonomist.

Calvin and the Reformers were actually not really theonomists, either. They didn't support a theocracy because they saw what that looked like with Catholic-controlled kingdoms where the Pope had to bless each monarch for them to have a political mandate, as it were.

Calvin and the Reformers actually supported a separation of Church and State, though they meant that in terms of spheres of authority. Today, many wrongfully think of that separation as a complete and total separation, where there is no religious content or influence exerted on the State, but the Reformers viewed the Church and State as different authorities that had a common goal and interest, and therefore could be partners. This is my view.

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I mentioned the Roman Catholic Catechism's command for us to vote to raise a comparison and contrast to your misguided religious conviction that compels you to sit out this POTUS election when the choice is clear between Marxism/Socialism and a candidate who has already been POTUS and he governed as a good American POTUS with Constitutional Conservative values.

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You did mention this. It's another example of why I believe in sola scriptura, because I don't believe men should bind the consciences of other men.

You may have noticed that during this conversation, while I have positively asserted my position and sought to defend it, I have been careful about discussing it in terms of sin precisely because I don't think this is an issue that Christians should break fellowship over and I've tried not to make it seem that way. While my conscience is bound by what I believe the Scriptures teach, I am not seeking to bind the consciences of others here but rather provide the reasoning for my convictions in case others may want to know why I'm on the "wrong side", as they see it.

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If your theological system does not permit you to make a choice when there is such a stark distinction between the two sides, then, I contend that your theological system is deeply flawed and you should be Expelled from Political Talk just like the Swiss threw John Calvin out of the country after he established a ridiculous and oppressive Theocracy.

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Forgive me if I don't accept your condemnation of my theological system. We have fundamentally different systems that do not have voting as a central tenant.

That aside, you seem to be ignoring why I'm not voting for one over the other in spite of the clear differences. I agree that the differences are very clear and that, from a strictly humanistic and pragmatic perspective, Trump is by far the better candidate. However my reasons for voting go beyond simple comparisons of political issues, and that's what I've been trying to convey this entire time.

Also, Calvin was expelled from Geneva because the city council at the time didn't like what he was doing. The people of Geneva grew dissatisfied with the city council and eventually they invited Calvin back.

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I say you personally need not be expelled, but, your preaching of your religion here should be expelled on this basis - you yourself admitted that you are not here to discuss policy or politics - you told us that you are here to Glorify God and preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ, as you interpret that Gospel according to John Calvin's interpretations. This is not a religion board. You have admitted that preaching religion is why you are here.

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Many times I have said that I'm here to provide a Christian perspective and worldview regarding politics and current events. That is why I'm here. I preach the gospel to glorify God as part of that. So yes, I'm here to preach the gospel but I do that as part of my commentary.

And as I said, policies have a moral component to them, so it's not unreasonable to talk about religious values and beliefs in terms of politics. You being so adamant that religion shouldn't be discussed here even though I have been doing this for over a decade seems to indicate that you have a personal problem with it that isn't shared by the site admins. I'll respect what they tell me, so if they say they don't want me mentioning religion on this board any more, I'll leave.

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Preachers who are preaching here on PT do not belong here. You think we want to read endless debates between you and, say, a Satanist? Or between you and a Hindu? Or even between you and an Atheist? No. We don't. And yet that's why you are here. You should come here to discuss policy and politics - not to preach your religion.

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You don't. Others might. Regardless, I'm here to discuss politics and current events from my religious perspective.

Since you profess to be a Christian, it's interesting to me that you don't seem to apply doing all things to God's glory to discussing politics, as if Christianity can be absolutely compartmentalized.

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And, on a personal note, of course it's reasonable for you to feel attacked by me when I vigorously refute your entire worldview and theology. It's reasonable for you to take it personally. But don't. I refute your ideas, not your person. I rebuke you for using PT to preach your religion instead of talking policy and politics. This is not personal.

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I can't help but take it personally when you call out the size of my denomination frequently even though I've told you that the size doesn't determine the truth (that's not an argument about ideas). You keep mischaracterizing or misstating my beliefs even after explaining them to you and others clearly and to a minute detail. You have often taken the side of a militant atheist against me, not just on specific positions but in clearly ridiculing of me as a person. You say it's not personal, but that doesn't appear to be the case in recent history.

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quote:“When I drink my wine – which is about the only wine I drink – and have my cracker, that is a form of asking for forgiveness, and I do that as often as possible because I feel cleansed,” he said. “I think in terms of ‘let’s go on and let’s make it right.’”

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Non-denominational Christian’s don’t drink wine with their communion. Neither do Presbyterians. I’m happy for this compilation of quotes, but it makes me more confused as to what his actual religious practices are