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Started By
Message
re: Meet 22-year-old Elisjsha Dicken who took down the shooter last night
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:20 am to the808bass
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:20 am to the808bass
quote:
It’s not illegal.
In all free states and even most states that don't care about civil liberties (I think Illinois is an exception, shocker) it only becomes a legal issue if they ask you to leave and you refuse. If I was asked to leave private property for any stupid reason I'd comply absent exigent circumstances.
I've lost track of how many places of businesses I've been in that had "no carry" policies that I ignored. I've never been asked to leave and I doubt 99% of them care; it's an insurance issue. They post the sign, they're good with their insurance company.
0
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:20 am to AggieHank86
quote:
So, you understand that you are engaged in a crimibal trespass, and you are fine with that.
Not in Indiana. Not until someone asks you to leave.
I can copy/paste that as many times as you need.
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:21 am to the808bass
quote:Did you read the criminal trespass statute?
the signs don’t carry the weight of law.
quote:My position is nothing new. We discussed the same issues in the Arbery case, where the property owner did NOT post a sign, and there thus was NOT a trespass.
Is this your crusade du jour?
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:21 am to AggieHank86
quote:
So, you understand that you are engaged in a crimibal trespass, and you are fine with that.
Just like you and daddy are fine with hiring illegals, I guess.
ETA And as others have pointed out it's not clear that my being there is criminal trespass, but I don't really care if it is. I guess this is one of those nuance issues that the board grasps and you don't.
This post was edited on 7/19/22 at 9:23 am
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:22 am to the808bass
quote:Again, did you read the statute? Simple question.
So, you understand that you are engaged in a crimibal trespass, and you are fine with that.quote:
Not in Indiana. Not until someone asks you to leave.
I am not asking you to cut and paste. I am not asking you to parrot someone else’s opinion. I’m asking you to analyze subsection (c)(2)
This post was edited on 7/19/22 at 9:58 am
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:23 am to AggieHank86
quote:
Did you read the criminal trespass statute?
I did.
Every legal opinion online that I’ve seen (and I read 5 or so) said Indiana “no firearms” signage didn’t carry the force of law. I’m going with them.
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:26 am to the808bass
quote:
“No Firearm” signs in Indiana have no force of law unless they are posted on property that is specifically mentioned in State Law as being off limits to those with a Permit/License to Carry. If you are in a place not specifically mentioned in the law that is posted and they ask you to leave, you must leave. If you refuse to leave then you are breaking the law and can be charged. Even if the property is not posted and you are asked to leave you must leave. Always be aware of the possibility that responding Police Officers who may have been called without your knowledge and may not know the laws on trespass etc. could arrest you even if you are within the law.
From "Indiana Firearm Law Reference Manual 3rd Edition" by Bryan Lee Ciyou, Esq.
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:28 am to The Boat
quote:
Elisjsha
Is that Amish?
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:36 am to LB84
My question is this:
Would his actions be less heroic if he didn't have a fricking carry permit?
Should a person without a driver's license not drive a person to the ER that needs emergency medical treatment?
This is all just so fricking stupid. I'm glad he did what he did. The bastard he clipped in that mall DESERVED it.
He, nor I, need a fricking license to carry.
"...shall not be infinged." is as clear as anything written in the Constitution.
The color of freedom in this country is so fricking pale it's nearly translucent.
Would his actions be less heroic if he didn't have a fricking carry permit?
Should a person without a driver's license not drive a person to the ER that needs emergency medical treatment?
This is all just so fricking stupid. I'm glad he did what he did. The bastard he clipped in that mall DESERVED it.
He, nor I, need a fricking license to carry.
"...shall not be infinged." is as clear as anything written in the Constitution.
The color of freedom in this country is so fricking pale it's nearly translucent.
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:38 am to Gideon Swashbuckler
quote:
Should a person without a driver's license not drive a person to the ER that needs emergency medical treatment?
They absolutely should.
But I have a good idea who would be here pointing out that they broke the law.
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:38 am to DisplacedBuckeye
That “handbook” simply says “ignore the language of the statute. Here is what I think.”
I respectfully read Section (2)(c) differently. It says a person has been “denied entry” under subsection (b)(1) when the property owner posts a notice in a manner that is likely to come to the attention of the public.
Your interpretation says that the State can override the desires of a property owner regarding access to his property, simply by issuing a CCP. Setting aside clear and unambiguous statutory language to the contrary, I think that would be atrocious public policy.
There are few indicia of ownership more important than the right to control access, and your interpretation strips that right from every property owner.
I respectfully read Section (2)(c) differently. It says a person has been “denied entry” under subsection (b)(1) when the property owner posts a notice in a manner that is likely to come to the attention of the public.
Your interpretation says that the State can override the desires of a property owner regarding access to his property, simply by issuing a CCP. Setting aside clear and unambiguous statutory language to the contrary, I think that would be atrocious public policy.
There are few indicia of ownership more important than the right to control access, and your interpretation strips that right from every property owner.
This post was edited on 7/19/22 at 9:39 am
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:40 am to AggieHank86
quote:
and your interpretation strips that right from every property owner.
No, it doesn't. They can still ask someone to leave.
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:40 am to Bobby OG Johnson
quote:Chicago still blames Indiana for it's gun problems.
The hero who took down the mass shooter in the Greenwood, Indiana mall last night
He was legally carrying under under Indiana's Constitutional Carry law.
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:42 am to Flats
In your view, did Jonathan Sapirman commit a trespass when he entered the mall carrying multiple firearms and contrary to the posted prohibitions?
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:44 am to AggieHank86
The only person that got a chance to tell the shooter he isn't allowed on the premises was the hero who shot him.
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:45 am to AggieHank86
quote:
In your view, did Jonathan Sapirman commit a trespass when he entered the mall carrying multiple firearms and contrary to the posted prohibitions?
Probably not, but for the sake of argument I'll allow that he did. I don't care, any more than I care about driving 77mph in a 70 zone or any more than you care about jaywalking or hiring illegals. There is no burden put on the property owner in this case.
If they posted a sign prohibiting boxer shorts under your jeans would you abide by it if you were wearing boxer shorts? Or "Star Wars fans prohibited" or any other silly-arse thing that puts zero burden on them?
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:47 am to Flats
quote:So, if you trespass on my property and I do not know it, you have not violated my rights? Kind of like that tree falling in the forest?
your interpretation strips that right from every property owner.quote:
No, it doesn't
You climb the fence of my back forty while I am traveling for a week, adjacent to my “no entry, private property” sign. You camp for three days and leave before I knew you were there.
Do you contend that you committed no trespass, because I did not know you were there and therefore did not tell you to leave?
This post was edited on 7/19/22 at 9:52 am
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:49 am to AggieHank86
quote:
So, if you trespass on my property and I do not kniw it, you have not violated my rights?
I'll respond if you'll respond to my questions. I'm not on the stand; you don't get to ignore what everybody else says and just keep throwing stuff hoping some of it sticks to the wall.
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:54 am to Flats
quote:That sort of condition for entry is obviously silly, but it is absolutely the right of the property owner to impose it.
If they posted a sign prohibiting boxer shorts under your jeans would you abide by it if you were wearing boxer shorts? Or "Star Wars fans prohibited" or any other silly-arse thing that puts zero burden on them?
When I purchase property, I have obtained (among other things) the right to be silly or even unreasonable.
The extent of “burden” imposed upon someone who wishes to obtain entry on my property is absolutely irrelevant.
Posted on 7/19/22 at 9:57 am to AggieHank86
quote:
Your interpretation says that the State can override the desires of a property owner regarding access to his property, simply by issuing a CCP.
No, it doesn't. My interpretation says that I don't find it disrespectful to ignore a property owner who wishes to restrict me from exercising a Constitutionally-protected natural right with a generic sign that carries no force of law.
To give an extreme, I'd also ignore signs that said "no blacks allowed" although you could probably make an argument that this statute allows for that, given no other context.
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