re: Left-Wing News Hired Hitman Charged W/ 2nd Degree Murder Of Patriot

quote:

---

We will have to agree to disagree as to whether or not there was enough information to form a meaningful opinion as to whether or not Dolloff was acting reasonably in the spirit of self defense, assuming we do disagree.

---

This will draw still more fire from the homers, but here it goes.

I am willing to assume arguendo that Helen, Dolloff and the reporter DID coordinate and DID hope to see (or even "create") a stressful situation and thus some juicy footage. I am not yet convinced, but it IS entirely plausible.

NONETHELESS, and assuming that to be true, it is STILL possible (or even probable) that they did NOT expect or intend a gunfight and thus that it is still ENTIRELY possible that Dolloff found himself in a situation which might give rise to a justiciable claim of self-defense in a criminal proceeding.

Hoping to see some conflict simply does NOT make one an "aggressor" for purposes of losing the right to the privilege of self-defense under the aggressor doctrine, and stepping between two potential combatants in hopes of avoiding an altercation simply does NOT do so either.

All of those suppositions regarding motive and coordination may WELL make Helen, Dolloff and the reporter "bad people," and it may well subject them to significant civil liability. But none of that would preclude the possibility that Dolloff thought himself to be facing serious bodily injury when Keltner raised his right arm and pointed something (unidentified) at him.

Yes, I know that most here disagree.

quote:

---

With the release of that 70+ image sequence by the Denver Post, we FINALLY have objective data to analyze.

---

Still can’t get to that article, even using Brave.

quote:

---

quote:

---

With the release of that 70+ image sequence by the Denver Post, we FINALLY have objective data to analyze.

---

Still can’t get to that article, even using Brave.

---

Keep trying. Good data there.

quote:

---

This was one of the things bothering me from the beginning. Well actually 2 things. He turns and looks directly at the camera. That seems odd. It seems like he would look all around him to assess any threats since he just murdered someone.

---

Another thing: note BGM’s agitated demeanor and heightened aggression toward Keltner. BGM was yelling “FA&FO” repeatedly as he attempted to goad Keltner into a physical confrontation.

Among the other Patriots, BGM seemed to focus specifically on Keltner. Why?

BGM knew Dolloff had his back in the anticipated confrontation with Keltner. That sequence alone is evidence of a targeted collusion between BGM and Dolloff.

Wut?

quote:

---

you keep trying to say Dolloff thinking Keltner was a threat is reasonable, but Dolloff was drawing his weapon immediately after the slap with Keltners hands at his side. He had plenty of time to decide not to shoot.

---

let’s look at that.

First, I have NEVER said that Dolloff drew his weapon in response to Keltner either (a) raising his right arm or (b) reaching for his firearm. I have consistently said that he drew his weapon in response to kilter striking him up on the head. I have also said, repeatedly, that does off would not have been justified in firing his weapon at that time.

Second, let’s look at those time indices that I cited above. From the time the Keltner hit Dolloff in the head until the time Dolloff had drawn and pointed and his weapon, approximately 1.25 seconds (or less) elapsed.

If we knew nothing about the politics of anyone involved in this dispute, I feel fairly confident that the vast majority of this board would agree that a physical assault would justify the drawing of a handgun in a defensive manner, even if not the actual discharge of that firearm.

Third, less than 1/3 of a second elapsed between the time that Keltner began to raise his right arm and the time that Dolloff discharged his firearm. The majority seem convinced that Dolloff knew the object in Keltner‘s hand was not a firearm. At this point, I am not willing to make that leap.

Again, set aside the political affiliations. Two guys are about to get into a fight. You step between them. One of them slaps the shite out of you so you draw your handgun. In less than a second, he raises something and points it at you. Are you entitled to defend yourself Or must you wait and take fire while you determine what it is in his hand? I submit that you were entitled to you defend yourself.

The video is up on the front page and you can clearly see doloff make a grab for the bear spray can.

My eyes tell me you are mistaken at best.

Thumb through this thread. There’s good footage of dollof reaching under his vest where his pistol was visibly holstered on the opposite side of the mace.

quote:

---

Dolloff is going to crack under interrogation in an effort to save his skin and say he knew Keltner was carrying a gun and that’s why he was jumpy.

---

Let's go with that, because it is entirely plausible.

Dolloff is a security guy ... licensed or not. He observed Keltner earlier, and he may well have seen the firearm under his left armpit. Does it not provide MORE justification from initially drawing his own weapon after Kelton popped him in the head? Does it not ENHANCE his self-defense claim that he KNEW the other person to be armed with a deadly weapon?

I could sell that to a Denver jury in a heartbeat.