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re: Is there anyone here who supports fiat curreny/the Federal Reserve?
Posted on 2/14/14 at 9:03 am to SpidermanTUba
Posted on 2/14/14 at 9:03 am to SpidermanTUba
quote:
Psst.... we didn't have enough gold to support it.
The entire system was doomed to failure. The U.S. did not have enough gold to back every dollar. By the time Nixon ended it, our gold reserves were depleted by 50% in barely over ten years and the foreign banks held more dollars than we had gold to back them.
It was only a matter of time before these banks would dump their dollars, collapsing our gold supply to zero and the dollar along with it.
Is that what you'd prefer? Seriously?
PSST it was that fact that limited government size. Nixon did away with the gold standard because central banks were demanding gold for their dollar and we had printed so much money through debt issuances to fund the Viet Nam war banks felt the dollar was not worth the official exchange rate we said it was.
Do I prefer that to the constant debasing of our currency we have now? absolutely. Oh you can compare the dollar to the yen or the euro and say that it has not been debased. That is simply not true. All of the fiat currencies have been debased. When the dollar gets too cheap the EC debased the Euro and so it. It makes holding your wealth in currency insane. You need hard assets.
What I clearly stated and you ignored is that I prefer a commoditized dollar with no tie to gold.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 9:06 am to RCDfan1950
quote:Honestly because banks were "throwing it at anybody off the street" is what brought on the 2008 financial crisis.
I realize that Banks have money to lend at low interest rates...but they aren't just throwing it at anybody off the street like in the past;
Banks have tightened their lending requirements and the regulators are keeping a closer watch on their banks' lending processes.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 9:10 am to RCDfan1950
quote:
I realize that Banks have money to lend at low interest rates
This is exactly true and because they are not lending it the massive QE has not had the impact Keyensian would predict. (They are not lending it because the demand for loans is not there for one thing. Other thing is they are happy with the tiny margins they are making on holding the reserves.)
Now that banks have their balance sheets in order the Fed should end it's rate setting and let interest rates trade freely.
No question the feds bailed out investment banks at the expense of the economy.
None of the assets that were real on the balances sheets of those investment banks would have disappeared had the fed not intervened. They would have simply changed hands to more financially stable owners. Ironically I believe Bear Sterns would still be with us today had there been no Fed but others still in business would be gone. Bear Sterns had a better portfolio of assets than many other but could not access liquidity in the overnight markets. If those markets were free the liquidity would have been there at higher cost.
This post was edited on 2/14/14 at 9:15 am
Posted on 2/14/14 at 9:13 am to BennyAndTheInkJets
Thanks, Benny.
I realize that the 'balance sheets' are great...but as a guy on the street...the prices I pay for food and energy have went consistently up, and the available money out there...down. They could have Zillions *available*...but if it don't hit the street...it may as well not be there.
An in regard to ending QE...how can they? Does not the Stock Market - even disregarding real MARKET value, based on the REAL street observations to which I report - support all manner of Retirement portfolios (private and state) to a degree that any great fall in it's (even manufactured) value...would have a calamitous effect on the economy?
I think the bottom line is that we are now living beyond our means. More consumption of goods and services by too many folk, with the old economic model of a profit/merit-based motivation for productivity...being undermined by a polar (Egalitarian/Marxist/Fascist/etc.) Ideological view.
Trying to understand this is taxing my limited cognitive abilities. Eyes are getting heavy. Think I'll bail to the homestead for a bit.

I realize that the 'balance sheets' are great...but as a guy on the street...the prices I pay for food and energy have went consistently up, and the available money out there...down. They could have Zillions *available*...but if it don't hit the street...it may as well not be there.
An in regard to ending QE...how can they? Does not the Stock Market - even disregarding real MARKET value, based on the REAL street observations to which I report - support all manner of Retirement portfolios (private and state) to a degree that any great fall in it's (even manufactured) value...would have a calamitous effect on the economy?
I think the bottom line is that we are now living beyond our means. More consumption of goods and services by too many folk, with the old economic model of a profit/merit-based motivation for productivity...being undermined by a polar (Egalitarian/Marxist/Fascist/etc.) Ideological view.
Trying to understand this is taxing my limited cognitive abilities. Eyes are getting heavy. Think I'll bail to the homestead for a bit.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 9:24 am to I B Freeman
quote:
the massive QE has not had the impact Keyensian would predict
point of clarification: Keynesian models in fact predict no effect, because we were at-or-near the zero/lower bound. if you don't want to take my word for it, take the old-keynesian champion, Krugman's.
quote:
The topic is what, if anything, monetary policy can do when interest rates are up against the zero lower bound (or the near-zero lower bound — it doesn’t matter exactly what the minimum is). Under these conditions, conventional monetary policy — just buying up short-term debt with newly created bank reserves — has no traction.
...[edit to quote everything relevant]...So his answer is yes, the Fed could boost the economy by making a commitment to hold off on raising interest rates when recovery finally kicks in.
But that isn’t what the Fed has mainly done, at least not explicitly. Instead, it has relied on purchases of nonconventional assets (misleadingly billed as quantitative easing or QE), especially long-term debt. Has this been effective? Woodford parses the evidence, and concludes tentatively that most of the apparent effects of QE actually come through the expectations channel — that is, that QE works, to the extent it does, largely because markets see it as a form of forward guidance.
So what should the Fed be doing? Woodford concludes that it needs to make a change in its basic policy pronouncements, so as to make them “history-dependent” — that is, it needs to promulgate a view of its intentions that would lead it to be slower to raise rates following a big slump than it would in other circumstances. And let me repeat the past tense: following a big slump, not just when you’re in it.
Also see here in early 2013, which he calls a "test of market monetarism". LINK
quote:
Sorry guys, but as a practical matter the Fed – while it should be doing more – can’t make up for contractionary fiscal policy in the face of a depressed economy.
This post was edited on 2/14/14 at 9:32 am
Posted on 2/14/14 at 9:27 am to RCDfan1950
quote:
I realize that the 'balance sheets' are great...but as a guy on the street...the prices I pay for food and energy have went consistently up, and the available money out there...down. They could have Zillions *available*...but if it don't hit the street...it may as well not be there.
An in regard to ending QE...how can they?
This is not as complicated as it sounds.
You and I and everybody else competes with the Fed for access to capital. Banks--even investment banks--can access risk free returns from the Fed. So there is a constant debate in the minds of banks as to what return do they have to have to risk deploying capital somewhere besides the fed? They can borrow at the fed rate and buy T Bills too. Why risk lending it?
What I am advocating is that this risk free market disappear. Make the banks work and invest for profits.
As far as replacing QE--lets do that with a massive change in the savings rate of Americans. How to do that? Privatize Social Security. (I advocate a national sales tax and mandatory payroll deductions for savings to pay the present and future SS benefits as savings build and as a safety net for those that do not save enough. I have posted that plan several times here and can again in an another thread if need be.)
These thing of course are easier said than done. Of course what the Fed wants to do is obviously becoming more and more difficult too.
This post was edited on 2/14/14 at 9:30 am
Posted on 2/14/14 at 9:35 am to I B Freeman
quote:You need to stick to ranting about movie credits and stay away from making stupid statements related to banking.
Ironically I believe Bear Sterns would still be with us today had there been no Fed but others still in business would be gone.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 9:40 am to I B Freeman
quote:T-bill rates (up to 6 months) are lower than the fed funds rate.
They can borrow at the fed rate and buy T Bills too. Why risk lending it?
So borrowing fed funds overnight and buying t-bills generates a negative spread unless the bank is willing to take interest rate risk so there's that....
Really, go back to posting about movie credits.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 9:59 am to LSURussian
LSURussian you offer nothing but insults in every thread you participate in.
We own the most t-bills we have ever had on the books at the community bank I own stock in because we are paying nothing for deposits and need overnight funds on very rare occasions. When the discount rate is .25 why pay depositors any more than that? Oh we pay for CDs at rates higher than that because it is longer term and we get nice spreads on that too buying longer treasury notes.
You have a much higher regard for yourself than does any intelligent reader of your crap.
Since you brought it up--do you still believe film tax credits are not subsidies?????? Looked stupid on that one didn't you?
We own the most t-bills we have ever had on the books at the community bank I own stock in because we are paying nothing for deposits and need overnight funds on very rare occasions. When the discount rate is .25 why pay depositors any more than that? Oh we pay for CDs at rates higher than that because it is longer term and we get nice spreads on that too buying longer treasury notes.
You have a much higher regard for yourself than does any intelligent reader of your crap.
Since you brought it up--do you still believe film tax credits are not subsidies?????? Looked stupid on that one didn't you?
This post was edited on 2/14/14 at 10:03 am
Posted on 2/14/14 at 10:25 am to I B Freeman
You fellas ought to back off the personal pissin match so as not to sully this Board's esteemed, National reputation as a high-level and honest political dialogue mechanism.
God forbid the 'lurkers' and responsible folk think we've went rogue here.
Even if it is fun.

Even if it is fun.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 10:29 am to RCDfan1950
quote:
You fellas ought to back off the personal pissin match so as not to sully this Board's esteemed, National reputation as a high-level and honest political dialogue mechanism. God forbid the 'lurkers' and responsible folk think we've went rogue here.
Even if it is fun.
Exactly.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 10:34 am to I B Freeman
quote:No, just in your threads where you prove you don't have a clue what you're talking about.
LSURussian you offer nothing but insults in every thread you participate in.
For example.....
quote:
When the discount rate is .25 why pay depositors any more than that?
You're clueless even to financial terminology.
The current 'discount rate' is .75% and it is the rate banks pay to borrow money from the Fed's discount window. I think you're trying to refer to the 'fed funds rate' which is totally different from the 'discount rate.' Any small credibility you had is gone, forever, if you don't know the basic difference between the discount rate and the Fed funds rate.
And the Federal Reserve's TARGETED Fed funds rate is .25% but the actual rate has been closer to .10% for quite some time now, so you're even wrong about that.
quote:So what? When loan demand is slack, banks always put their excess liquidity into other assets such as treasury securities. And I highly doubt your bank has a record amount of t-bills. It is probably holding a larger portfolio of treasury bonds, not bills but you, with your limited knowledge, think t-bonds and t-bills are the same thing.
We own the most t-bills we have ever had on the books at the community bank I own stock in because we are paying nothing for deposits and need overnight funds on very rare occasions.
And, if your bank is that liquid, as are most community banks across the country, it doesn't borrow overnight, it net LENDS Fed funds overnight. That was a really stupid statement on your part.
This post was edited on 2/14/14 at 11:04 am
Posted on 2/14/14 at 11:01 am to BennyAndTheInkJets
You're looking at things in a very small vacuum.
Gold has real worth. Fiat paper money only has perceived worth. Its very existence depends upon the creation of debt and fractional reserve banking. Without its illusion of worth, it's worth nothing. That's why a competing currency of real value would win out.
Fiat money works on the same principle as kiting checks. It works great as long as you can perpetually kite checks.
quote:
You aren't even taking into account income growth for US citizens if you want to just block out the rest of the world. When you look globally, inflation indicators for a single country don't tell you anything. If we're running 2% inflation but everyone else is running 3% levels, the dollar will appreciate. Looking at the price of cars in 1960 and today ignores every single contextual data parameter possible. I mean, come on, you can't think things just behave in a vacuum like that, can you?
Gold has real worth. Fiat paper money only has perceived worth. Its very existence depends upon the creation of debt and fractional reserve banking. Without its illusion of worth, it's worth nothing. That's why a competing currency of real value would win out.
Fiat money works on the same principle as kiting checks. It works great as long as you can perpetually kite checks.
This post was edited on 2/14/14 at 11:10 am
Posted on 2/14/14 at 11:09 am to Porky
quote:No, gold, just like any asset, has worth only because people are willing to pay something for it.
Gold has real worth.
Unlike what was believed in medieval times, gold does not emit magical, invisible rays that make people want it which gives it a special value.
Gold is a malleable, shiny, rust-proof element and those characteristics can be utilized in the production of certain goods, just like with aluminum. It's just that gold is rarer than aluminum so its price is influenced by the available supply of it.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 11:11 am to LSURussian
quote:
Gold is a malleable, shiny, rust-proof element and those characteristics can be utilized in the production of certain goods, just like with aluminum. It's just that gold is rarer than aluminum so its price is influenced by the available supply of it.
Yes...gold has many uses. Compare that to a 6 inch strip of paper. I'll take the gold.
This post was edited on 2/14/14 at 11:13 am
Posted on 2/14/14 at 11:21 am to Porky
quote:I like gold, too. But it's impractical to carry around gold bars in my pocket.
I'll take the gold.
And as far as returning to a gold standard, there isn't enough gold in the world's gold reserves to support the output of just the U.S. economy much less the world's economy. So there's that.....
Posted on 2/14/14 at 11:30 am to LSURussian
quote:
I like gold, too. But it's impractical to carry around gold bars in my pocket.
And as far as returning to a gold standard, there isn't enough gold in the world's gold reserves to support the output of just the U.S. economy much less the world's economy. So there's that.....
We need competing currencies with at least one backed by something of real value...not perceived value. Fiat money thrives on debt and fractional reserve banking which is nothing more than glorified and legalized check kiting.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 11:36 am to Porky
quote:
We need competing currencies with at least one backed by something of real value...not perceived value.
Why? And what would you propose to have backing it?
Posted on 2/14/14 at 11:54 am to Porky
quote:
Gold has real worth. Fiat paper money only has perceived worth. Its very existence depends upon the creation of debt and fractional reserve banking. Without its illusion of worth, it's worth nothing. Any single asset, whether it be real or financial, only has value because somebody will pay a certain amount for it. Natural gas used to be considered waste and just burned when drilling for oil, now it is considered a very prized commodity. Perception is reality, and the perceived value of gold is no different than the perceived value of money.
Gold only has the worth that people place on it. What are gold's uses? It has a fraction of the conductivity of silver and is only used for jewelry because the historical perception is that it is worth something due to it being shiny. Just the same as fiat, the perception of its worth equals the value of its worth. How can you look at fiat and say it has an illusion of value then look at gold and say it has real value?
quote:
That's why a competing currency of real value would win out.
And why would that happen? Why? Explain why. You have offered no statistical evidence, no claims based on actual economic or financial parameters, no historical context, none. You have just been making claims because you believe its true. We've historically had both types, gold backed and fiat (although many can claim that in the grand scheme of things the lines are very blurred between both). We saw what happened with the gold standard, it hindered economic growth, caused the dollar to be more volatile than under the current system, and made banking operationally much harder. Fiat absolutely has its flaws as does everything else, but you are absolutely ignoring everything that has been said in this thread and just continuing your claims with the data clearly refuting them.
Posted on 2/14/14 at 12:07 pm to RCDfan1950
quote:
An in regard to ending QE...how can they? Does not the Stock Market - even disregarding real MARKET value, based on the REAL street observations to which I report - support all manner of Retirement portfolios (private and state) to a degree that any great fall in it's (even manufactured) value...would have a calamitous effect on the economy?
Because there are operational risks for the Fed continuing QE. At the end of the year, the Fed owned between 35% - 50% (back of the napkin, haven't ran the balance sheet figures) of all Treasuries maturing over 3 years. Treasuries are very important for market operations across the globe. They are a primary source of collateral for repurchase agreements, OTC derivatives, forward agreements, and now they are in high demand for centrally cleared collateral. Also, if a credit trader wants to just go long credit spread, they can either sell a CDS/CDX or they can buy the cash bond and sell a like-duration Treasury.
There has been a wedge between the economy and markets since QE started, essentially making the markets opposite land. Bad news was good news for markets because it meant more QE, and good news was bad news for the opposite reason. Now we are winding back to where the markets and economy go more hand in hand.
quote:
I think the bottom line is that we are now living beyond our means. More consumption of goods and services by too many folk, with the old economic model of a profit/merit-based motivation for productivity...being undermined by a polar (Egalitarian/Marxist/Fascist/etc.) Ideological view.
We're actually in much better shape leverage wise (aka living beyond our means) than we were in '03-'06 where consumers had a negative savings rate. There are some big structural problems with the US in terms of entitlements and education. However, even though these are big and serious, our problems are a lot less significant than other parts of the world. Europe has huge issues because southern European countries are strangled from the euro since it can't depreciate to the point to boost their exports and tourism, and northern European countries are reaping the benefit of a weaker currency than it would be if their country had its own. Also politically, these are 17 very different member states so if you think our political landscape is a mess just go watch an EU summit. Japan is pumping monetary stimulus per their GDP over 10x what the US has done to get out of 2 lost decades. China has a shadow banking system that the CBoC has no idea how to handle on top of their extremely rampant corruption and populist unhappiness. Emerging markets are feeling the huge brunt of the flip side of "hot money" when it actually flows back out, and they wasted (outside of Mexico) some serious boom years to do structural reforms.
All in all when you look at it, the US is sitting pretty well right now.
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