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re: Is John Pavlovitz a Christian?
Posted on 9/13/20 at 3:00 pm to JudgeHolden
Posted on 9/13/20 at 3:00 pm to JudgeHolden
quote:
Can someone be saint like in every regard yet support abortion rights and still be a Christian?
Can someone be sickeningly sinful yet be a warrior against abortion and still be a Christian?
In the context of an election, I don’t think those are the right questions. I don’t care as much if my President is a Christian. I want him to keep the government in its lane and not in my family or church’s lane and stay out of my kid’s education.
As we have clearly seen over the past 6+ months, Democrats are fine dictating every single one of the above. And they’re fine doing it for purely political reasons.
To answer your actual question, I believe some people who believe that they’re pro-choice are still believers. I don’t think you can be a hardline Planned Parenthood champion and take the Gospel all that seriously.
To the second part, a sickeningly sinful person isn’t displaying the fruit of the Spirit. Championing sexuality that is outside God’s plan would fall into that definition of “sickeningly sinful.”
Posted on 9/13/20 at 3:03 pm to Tchefuncte Tiger
That our Protestant seminaries are turning out hundreds of Pavlovitzes a year (probably thousands) really demonstrates the bankruptcy of our seminaries. I’m not singling anyone out. I wouldn’t let my kid go to Trinity, let alone PTS, these days.
Posted on 9/13/20 at 3:03 pm to Wolfhound45
You definitely need some prayers, baw.
Posted on 9/13/20 at 3:05 pm to JudgeHolden
(no message)
This post was edited on 10/9/20 at 1:31 pm
Posted on 9/13/20 at 3:09 pm to JudgeHolden
I’m not Baptist and I’m not dispensationalist. My kids probably care less about that.
Posted on 9/13/20 at 3:09 pm to Ricardo
quote:
The issue of abortion is much like a lot of other gray areas. Where do people draw the line? I, personally, am of the opinion that if leftists are willing to allow a child to determine his/her gender, then they should be willing to allow him/her to choose whether to live or die.
Interesting point.
Posted on 9/13/20 at 3:11 pm to JudgeHolden
I wholeheartedly agree.
Not from an unbeliever or a Judaizer.
Not from an unbeliever or a Judaizer.
Posted on 9/13/20 at 3:42 pm to JudgeHolden
quote:
Dear White Evangelicals, I need to tell you something: People have had it with you. They’re done. They want nothing to do with you any longer, and here’s why: They see your hypocrisy, your inconsistency, your incredibly selective mercy, and your thinly veiled supremacy.
For starters, what people have had it with White Evangelicals? That's such a broad brush to paint with it's meaningless. I'm sure that the people who think protesting during covid-19 is okay, but going to church services is not okay have had it with evangelicals and consider evangelical support of Trump to be hypocritical... but those people probably don't see their own hypocrisy in saying protesting is fine but church services and Trump rallies are not. I'm not an evangelical myself, but I see zero merit to this starting point unless he's more specific.
quote:
For eight years they watched you relentlessly demonize a black President; a man faithfully married for 26 years; a doting father and husband without a hint of moral scandal or the slightest whiff of infidelity. They watched you deny his personal faith convictions, argue his birthplace, and assail his character—all without cause or evidence. They saw you brandish Scriptures to malign him and use the laziest of racial stereotypes in criticizing him.
Many people might not have liked Obama for a myriad of reasons, but he's been no more demonized than Republican presidents or presidential candidates. I'm not a fan of GW Bush, but Bush took more crap in the press and from liberal quarters than Obama ever did from the right or from evangelicals that I've seen. When McCain & Romney ran, they were demonized (and I don't like them either). Trump is now demonized far more than Obama ever was. Why should Obama be beyond reproach if others aren't? Why bring Obama's race into his argument? Some people don't like Obama specifically because they feel he did bring race into things when he shouldn't have, claiming a kid like Trayvon could have been his son. Who is Pavlovitz to know that Obama was a "doting" father and husband when the cameras weren't on? His bias is more than apparent, and to my eyes is straying towards disengenuous and purposeful distortion than mere bias.
quote:
And through it all, White Evangelicals—you never once suggested that God placed him where he was, you never publicly offered prayers for him and his family, you never welcomed him to your Christian Universities, you never gave him the benefit of the doubt in any instance, you never spoke of offering him forgiveness or mercy, your evangelists never publicly thanked God for his leadership, your pastors never took to the pulpit to offer solidarity with him, you never made any effort to affirm his humanity or show the love of Jesus to him in any quantifiable measure.
1) More broad brush strokes of hyperbole that I don't think he could back up. And I think he's wrong. I would bet Obama would be treated with respect in any number of evangelical churches if some opportunity arose where he had an opportunity to visit such congregations... with far more respect than Trump would be met with in any number of liberal leaning venues.
2) What meaningful outreach did Obama ever make to any evangelicals that was ever rebuffed?
quote:
You violently opposed him at every single turn—without offering a single ounce of the grace you claim as the heart of your faith tradition. You jettisoned Jesus as you dispensed damnation on him.
1) What violent opposition did Obama encounter beyond mere disagreement with his decision making?
2) Who denied him grace or dispensed damnation on Obama? I don't count disagreeing with his politics and being wary of the leftist agenda which is pretty anti-church (again: protesting okay, church services aren't) to be condemning him. Those who know anything about socialism/communism know they like to put the state above the church vs separating church & state.
quote:
And yet you give carte blanche to a white Republican man so riddled with depravity, so littered with extramarital affairs, so unapologetically vile, with such a vast resume of moral filth—that the mind boggles.
Who's giving Trump carte blanche? I see Trump's flaws. I don't speak for evangelicals, but suspect they do, too. Remember the parable when the men dragged the woman before Jesus accusing her of adultery and Jesus asked the one without sin to cast the first stone and they all backed off. If Trump's sins affect his ability to govern, that's one thing; if they're a function of his mere mortal appetites, that's between him and God. I can only speculate broadly into the motives of any group, but would imagine the general support evangelicals show for Trump has more to do with them seeing his agenda and views being more in line with theirs than thinking he's without sin. And this makes sense, since the Left, as a whole, promotes the agendas of socialism, communism and various progressive thinking... all of which are fairly anti-religion in some ways.
I could go on to the following paragraphs, but I think you get the point. Pretty much every thing this guy says is heavy-handed hyperbole and has no real substance. Further, as many people joke (not really joking) about the Left being guilty of whatever they accuse the Right of doing, he comes off as a hypocrite. He sounds like a pretty annoying windbag, and based on what I've read, I doubt he provides much good guidance to anyone about how to be a good Christian, and probably doesn't uphold those values himself as he's clearly pretty ate up with hate-- which is pretty antithetical to the message of Christ. The way he upholds in "image" of Obama being good without critiquing his policies, while telling you to look at the flawed man Trump is and ignore that his policies will benefit you (evangelicals) is dishonest in my eyes.
Posted on 9/13/20 at 4:00 pm to epbart
To state part of the argument another way, I think evangelicals view Trump somewhat as an archetypal anti-hero. He might be a screw-up in many ways, like John McClane, an alcoholic always getting in trouble at work and with his wife... or like countless other characters in action / western movies who follow a similar character arc. But if you're in a hostage situation in Nakatomi Tower, he's a better bet than the slick FBI agents who show up.
It's a very fitting metaphor for why many support Trump: imperfect as he is, he's "that guy"... the one who is willing to step up and fight. That alone is worthy of some respect.
It's a very fitting metaphor for why many support Trump: imperfect as he is, he's "that guy"... the one who is willing to step up and fight. That alone is worthy of some respect.
Posted on 9/13/20 at 4:30 pm to epbart
quote:
e's "that guy"... the one who is willing to step up and fight.
For me, four years ago he was “that guy” who wasn’t Hillary. That was enough. Today, putting aside what I’ll just roll up as “unpresidential behavior”, I don’t have a lot to criticize that I wouldn’t have had with any other Republican, and a much longer list of praises that I KNOW I wouldn’t have had with any other Republican. He’s not perfect but I’m happily voting for him, not just against Biden.
Posted on 9/13/20 at 4:33 pm to JudgeHolden
Your lengthy OP is evidence of how ubiquitous gaslighting truly is.....many churches are under progressive satanic influence. It’s a shame.
Posted on 9/13/20 at 4:59 pm to JudgeHolden
quote:
Yes. Pavlovitz basically says you are hypocritical and unChristian if you vote for Trump. (I don’t agree).
Many on this Board say it is unChristian to fail to vote for Trump.
I’m trying to figure out where the line is.
Psalm 118:8.
The line is don't put your hopes in a man.
Posted on 9/13/20 at 6:05 pm to HailHailtoMichigan!
Being nice could even be a handicap, if it results in inaction.
Posted on 9/13/20 at 6:09 pm to JudgeHolden
quote:
So is Jerry Falwell, Jr a Christian?
Sure. Just not a very good one. Its damned near impossible to he a good one.
Posted on 9/14/20 at 8:04 am to FooManChoo
He apparently isn't familiar with King David or the Apostle Paul.
Posted on 9/14/20 at 8:20 am to Tchefuncte Tiger
quote:
I assume that Christians know that self-proclaimed Christian author and pastor John Pavlovitz is a political activist who commandeers the Word of God for profit, not an actual minister of the Gospel of Jesus.
If he is a Christian, why was he dismissed as the leader of a Mega Church? He now leads a Community Church.
I still say the following.
On the day following the great rapture, Churches around the world will be filled with pew sitters, holding down pew cushions, many with Pastors behind the podium and looking around wondering "What in the hell just happened?"
Posted on 9/14/20 at 8:24 am to JudgeHolden
quote:
I’m trying to figure out where the line is.
No you are not and you know it. Why lie? You and I went through this exercise last week.
Posted on 9/14/20 at 8:26 am to bluedragon
quote:
If he is a Christian, why was he dismissed as the leader of a Mega Church?
Not to defend this particular blogger, but I don't think dismissal is an automatic sign of anything other than the person screwed up. We had to fire an assistant pastor because he got way too chummy with another married female. While that disqualifies him from a leadership role I don't think it's hard proof that he's not genuine, he just screwed up. We all do that.
Heck, for some mega-churches you might be dismissed for preaching from the Bible.
Posted on 9/14/20 at 8:28 am to JudgeHolden
quote:
Can someone be saint like in every regard yet support abortion rights and still be a Christian?
Do you see abortion as murder? Do you value life? The answer to your question is no.
quote:
sickeningly sinful yet be a warrior against abortion and still be a Christian?
absolutely not. It is impossible to actively live a life of sin and be a Christian. I did not say someone cannot sin but that they cannot actively live a life of sin.
Why don't you just pray for God's guidance in who you vote for or don't vote for or don't vote at all?
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