re: Impressive support for Intelligent Design

If to you God is where science has yet to tread then God is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance.

Neil deGrasse Tyson

quote:

---

Nor you with mine

---

That's categorially false. I've expended quite a few words quoting you and responding in detail. I've addressed your insistence that "one day is like a thousand years" is a hermeneutic exclusive to Genesis 1. I've responded in detail regarding your insistence on a special God-time that exists in Genesis 1 but not elsewhere. I've responded in detail as to why you are wrong about this supposed covenant with the laws of nature.

I'm writing a lot in response to you, and you're only selectively responding, while claiming I'm not addressing your arguments. I am. Many times, in fact, both in shooting down your claims and supporting my own. You can disagree with my conclusions, but at least I'm supporting what I'm saying.

quote:

---

and my patience for statements like your "basics of the Christian Faith" aspersion is limited.

---

I wasn't trying to belittle you, but I apologize if it seemed that way. My children learn early on the Children's Catechism, and then move on to the Westminster Shorter Catechism. In both places, they learn how God gave us the Bible, so I consider this topic something akin to Bible 101.

quote:

---

"Only about 400-500 years" is less time than than we presently are from points in which objections to geocentrism would get "a heretic" burned at the stake.

---

It's not a long time for the Hebrew language, which is my point. It's not like Moses had no words to use to convey long periods of time, but David was able to speak of a day being like a thousand years a few centuries later.

quote:

---

Don't you? Really?

---

Yes, really.

Like I already said, I'm not interested in starting a new topic with you until we end the first one. Are you acknowledging that your view of Genesis 1 is wrong based on the grammar, its usage by Moses in the 10 commandments, and Jesus' reference to it as "the beginning" in terms of human marriage?

quote:

---

so there is your sensible explanation for our origin.

---

We have no idea how life began nor can we replicate it, even being deliberate and rigging the books.

quote:

---

"And God said, “Let there be a vault between the waters to separate water from water.” So God made the vault and separated the water under the vault from the water above it. And it was so. God called the vault “sky.”...

---

You are 100% correct that the Bible authors and the ancient Israelites wrote that there was a solid dome with waters above the dome… that it was one of the most wondrous feats of Elohim’s creation actually and was a testament to his power and might. Let’s take that translation of Genesis you used and insert some transliterated Hebrew.

quote:

---

And Elohim said, “Let there be a Raqia between the mayim to separate mayim from mayim.” So Elohim made the Raqia and separated the mayim under the Raqia from the mayim above it. And it was so. Elohim called the raqia shamayim.

---

Raqia is a noun derivative from the Hebrew word “raqa” which means to stamp or beat out as in metallurgy, which is what they did to bronze and later iron to make swords and shields. The sheer fact that the Raqia is a noun form of raqa means that it is super hard and super strong. And the Bible tells us in many books how hard and strong it is.

So Foo makes up some excuse in his head and convinces himself it doesn’t say what it says and denies all the other surrounding and preceding cultures - the Canaanites, Egyptians, Arabs, Babylonians, Assyrians… all believed in the hard dome firmament in the heavens.

Heavens… from the Hebrew “shamayim”. It’s what Elohim called the firmament. Anything glaring? The Hebrew word for heavens is made of the word for waters.

Foo explains it away based on irrationality. You explain it away as allegory though, it seems. But you need to understand that’s literally what those people that wrote what the became the Bible actually believed.

It’s ancient Israelite cosmology 101 for dummies - the earth was a flat disk built on pillars with a solid dome on top of the earth with waters of chaos above the firmament and below the earth. Everyone who knows anything about ancient near east cosmology knows this and it’s not even debated among legitimate scholars.

You seem to interpret Genesis timeline as allegory. Foo interprets it literally. Foo is right on his interpretation. That’s what those people people believed. Why Foo is such a hypocrite is he wants to throw away the flat earth cosmology literally in the Bible for egghead scientific “theories” about a spherical earth. In reality he doesn’t even understand the scientific method or what a scientific theory is.

You won’t get anywhere arguing with him. Come to my side. You are closer than you think.

quote:

---

Was Moses a witness to creation? No!

---

In Jewish tradition, yes absolutely Moses was a witness to creation.

Exodus 24

quote:

---

15Then Moses went up on the mountain, and the cloud covered the mountain. 16The glory of the LORD dwelt on Mount Sinai, and the cloud covered it six days. And on the seventh day he called to Moses out of the midst of the cloud.

---

They knew that Moses was on the mountain for 6 days because Yahweh was explaining and showing him the six days of creation. Slightly later Jewish fan fiction states of obviously.

Jubilees 1:1-4

quote:

---

And it came to pass in the first year of the exodus of the children of Israel out of Egypt, in the third month, on the sixteenth day of the month, [2450 Anno Mundi] that God spake to Moses, saying: 'Come up to Me on the Mount, and I will give thee two tables of stone of the law and of the commandment, which I have written, that thou mayst teach them.' And Moses went up into the mount of God, and the glory of the Lord abode on Mount Sinai, and a cloud overshadowed it six days. And He called to Moses on the seventh day out of the midst of the cloud, and the appearance of the glory of the Lord was like a flaming fire on the top of the mount. And Moses was on the Mount forty days and forty nights, and God taught him the earlier and the later history of the division of all the days of the law and of the testimony.

---

He showed him the glory of Yahweh. Creation.

Psalm 19:1 for example:

quote:

---

The heavens (shamayim) declare the glory of God, and the firmament (Raqia) proclaims his handiwork.

---

quote:

---

So was Jesus referring to the marriage of "darkness upon the face of the deep"? Because THAT WAS THE BEGINNING!

---

I hate to agree with Foo on this but man and women becoming one flesh was in the beginning, as in it was part of creation.

There’s also a problem though with about every English Bible translation. “In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth” is an improper translation. The Hebrew is most properly translated “In the beginning when God began to created the heavens and earth” or it could be “in the beginning of God creating the heavens and the earth.” You see, in their theology, Yahweh / Elohim or whatever didn’t create the earth or the water. It was already existing. It was chaotic. He ordered creation by making light, then creating the firmament, then separating the waters from the waters, then making dry land appear, then creating the sun, moon, and stars.

quote:

---

Perhaps you've never read 2 Peter, or Psalms? Before you engage in these discussions, you should familiarize yourself with thoose writings ... or instead, as you OBVIOUSLY are familiar with them, you should better consider your BELIEF in them!

---

Sorry bud you are wrong. Foo is right, and it pains me to point that out. Just because a thousand years can be like a day to God doesn’t mean that in Genesis, a day didn’t mean a literal day.

Jubilees 2:1

quote:

---

And the angel of the presence spake to Moses according to the word of the Lord, saying: Write the complete history of the creation, how in six days the Lord God finished all His works and all that He created, and kept Sabbath on the seventh day and hallowed it for all ages, and appointed it as a sign for all His works.

---

I should explain what Jubilees is. It’s Jewish fan fiction - a re-write of Genesis in the same way Chronicles is a re-write of Samuel and Kings. It was a highly prized scripture of the Dead Sea scrolls community in Qumran. Jubilees was one of the most copied scriptures they kept besides the Torah and 1 Enoch and Isaiah.

Once you realize that much of the stuff written in the bible was intended literally that you are interpreting now allegorically, then you can start to question if there was any divine assistance in writing scriptures which are obviously based on falsehoods and fallacies and lack of scientific knowledge that an all powerful and benevolent creator would have known and conveyed.

quote:

---

You don’t even believe Jesus was a historical person who walked the earth.

---

I share this belief with the historical Paul, and whoever wrote Colossians, Ephesians, James, Jude, Hebrews, Revelation, and 1 Peter.


Oh, plus the literal Christians that for nearly 400 years the church fathers such as Ignatius, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Athanasius whined about. They called them “docetists” sometimes and “gnostics” other times but those were the literal Christians who believed Jesus was never on earth. And you have Ignatius and whoever wrote 1/2 John and 2 Peter saying “trust be bro! he was really born, really ate, really shite, and really was crucified under Pontius Pilate. We saw him and walked with him and we are super serial!!!”

Those other Christians put up a good fight but lost out due to Roman imperialism and the Christians in Rome and Constantinople were Jesus-historicists.

What’s more likely? Christians who literally loved and worshipped Jesus invented a story about him never really being a man on earth? Or Christians who literally loved and worshipped a deity, the highest archangel and their savior, probably made up an allegorical story that was meant to be used for teaching morals and ethics and as a conversion tool for gentiles that was never meant to be taken literally? Hell, Philo of Alexandria plus the Qumran sect of Jews were worshipping Jesus 50-100 years before “Jesus” was said to have been born in the gospels.

quote:

---

I share this belief with the historical Paul, and whoever wrote Colossians, Ephesians, James, Jude, Hebrews, Revelation, and 1 Peter.

---

no you don’t. They taught a historical Jesus who had an earthly ministry.

It is interesting that you called out 1 Peter. Peter claimed to be a witness to Christ’s sufferings (5:1), which he couldn’t have been if that was in reference to some heavenly Roman execution.

Peter also spoke of being an eye witness to the transfiguration of Jesus (2 Pet. 1:16-18) as described in the gospel narratives as part of His earthly ministry that you deny. In that same book, Peter calls Paul’s writings “Scripture”, which he wouldn’t have done if he thought that Paul contradicted the truth as you assert.

Abandon the lies you tell yourself.

quote:

---

You won’t get anywhere arguing with him. Come to my side.

---

You're both Birds of a Feather.

I'm very comfortable with my Faith. Extremely so. Your invitation to "my side" comes across in the way a gay man's invitation to join "the lifestyle" would. There is not the least attraction for me there. I don't begrudge you your beliefs. There is simply zero attraction to them, for me.

I believe the Bible and Natural Laws are equally divine providence, Word and Work, Rationale and Result, both subject to our understanding, or misinterpretation. They can only inherently be at odds through our misinterpretation of one, or the other or both.

I find science illuminating in that regard, because it is an area where we all know there is always more to learn. We are comfortable with that. Whereas with the Bible, there are many people who feel they pretty much know it all. Both you and Foo are equally convinced you do. Both of you equally convinced, while yet arriving at completely antithetical conclusions. Res ipsa loquitur.

The reality is, neither of you know it all. Nor do I. The difference is I'm totally at ease with that fact.

Regarding Genesis 1, no Moses of course was not a witness to Creation ... before man was created. The question is how God could convey complexity of Creation --- of the evolution of the universe, of earth, of life --- to a man with an extremely limited intellectual background by our standards, and so came Genesis 1.
---

It reminds me of the story of a 1st grade Catholic School teacher who had related the Christmas Story and events around Jesus nativity in a series of lessons to her class. So she asked the children to draw a picture relating to some aspect of it.

She walked around the class as the little ones created their masterpieces, mostly iterations of mangers. But she paused at one boy's desk. He'd drawn four people on an airplane. So she asked him which story it was meant to represent.

“It's the Flight from Bethlehem,” was his reply.

Pointing at each figure, the teacher said: “So that must be Mary, Joseph, and Baby Jesus. But who’s the fourth person?”

“Oh, that’s Pontius the pilot!”

---

Fun story, but with a message regarding Genesis. The teacher obviously never told the kids there was a plane. Nor did it occur to her that the story of the Flight to Egypt might be interpreted that way. Yet, for the boy, it made perfect sense. That does not change what the teacher actually taught.

So, Squirrelmeister - you contend that IF one believes in the Young Earth Creationism, literal "yom" is a 24 hour period, and therefore the Universe is roughly 6,000 years old, THEN you must also believe in the ancient belief regarding the characteristics of the sea and sky, i.e. that there is a beaten metal dome above the flat Earth, which rests on pillars?

Could you summarize this connection again for us? The Young Earth part is very familiar and is in Genesis.

quote:

---

So, Squirrelmeister - you contend that IF one believes in the Young Earth Creationism, literal "yom" is a 24 hour period, and therefore the Universe is roughly 6,000 years old,

---

That’s my interpretation of the intent of the biblical authors and redactors. And it’s corroborated- though not exactly 6,000 years in other surrounding cultures, by the young earth creation models of the Egyptians, Canaanites, Assyrians, and Babylonians among others. There was morning and there was evening, one YOM. The biblical authors believed the universe was created in 6 literal days.

quote:

---

THEN you must also believe in the ancient belief regarding the characteristics of the sea and sky, i.e. that there is a beaten metal dome above the flat Earth, which rests on pillars?

---

You can believe whatever you want. My issue is with people who say “I believe the Bible” but cherry pick the hell out of it, rejecting the flat earth with firmament and waters of heaven cosmology while also believing in a 6,000 year old earth based on Adam and Eve.

quote:

---

Could you summarize this connection again for us? The Young Earth part is very familiar and is in Genesis.

---

So is the firmament and the waters above the firmament - Genesis chapter 1.

Let me summarize this by just quoting from the book of Job.

Chapter 9

quote:

---

6who shakes the earth out of its place, and its pillars tremble; 7who commands the sun, and it does not rise; who seals up the stars; 8who alone stretched out the heavens and trampled the waves of the sea; 9who made the Bear and Orion, the Pleiades and the chambers of the south;

---

Fun fact: “the Bear” is one of the she-bears who mauled the “children” who were clowning the bald prophet Elisha “go up, bald head!” (Which was a chant to the Canaanite moon god… Elisha was a “historicized” moon god in the same way Jesus became a “historicized” celestial deity)

This one from chapter 37 should help:

quote:

---

18Can you, like him, spread out the skies, hard as a cast metal mirror?

---

Chapter 38

quote:

---

4“Where were you when I laid the foundation of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding. 5Who determined its measurements—surely you know! Or who stretched the line upon it? 6On what were its bases sunk, or who laid its cornerstone, 7when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

---

Pillars, bases, cornerstones… only on a flat earth can a line be stretched upon it. Note also the reference to the stars being sons of El and singing because they are angels. We know that to me a myth because we know the stars are balls of hydrogen fusion millions of miles away.

quote:

---

12“Have you commanded the morning since your days began, and caused the dawn to know its place, 13that it might take hold of the skirts of the earth, and the wicked be shaken out of it?

---

Think of how you might hold a dinner plate and how you might hold it to throw away food scraps.

And from Isaiah 40:22

quote:

---

It is he who sits above the circle of the earth, and its inhabitants are like grasshoppers; who stretches out the heavens like a curtain, and spreads them like a tent to dwell in

---

“Circle” is a literal two dimensional circle. Not a sphere. They had a word for sphere sometimes translated as “ball” but the author used the word for circle. Some English translations use the English words “compass” (the instrument used to draw a perfect circle) and “circuit” like a ring around a track.

Ezekiel 1:22

quote:

---

22Over the heads of the living creatures there was the likeness of an expanse, shining like awe-inspiring crystal, spread out above their heads.

---

And Ezekiel 10

quote:

---

1Then I looked, and behold, on the expanse that was over the heads of the cherubim there appeared above them something like a sapphire stone, in appearance like a throne.

---

Now Foo the retard will get on here and say something like “it is not necessary to believe the firmament was firm or hard or strong”, but the biblical authors wanted us all to know they thought the firmament was hard as a damn rock and held back the waters of heaven. “Mayim” is the Hebrew word for waters. What’s the name given to the firmament in Genesis? “Shamayim”. Translated as Heaven. The word for waters is baked into the name for the firmament.

It’s cool - y’all can all believe whatever y'all want. I just ask for honesty and minimal hypocrisy. Don’t say “I believe the Bible is the inspired word of God” if you literally don’t believe what the authors wrote.