re: Immigration and Christianity

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So, L2..."each will be rewarded according to their works"...don't apply?

And though I'm not sure how the Calvinist Argument re Predestination shakes out, I do believe that "even the hairs on your head are numbered". I.e., one's destiny - in God's pov - is pre-destined/ordained, because all things have already happened.

For us, it's a daily work. I'm willing to bet that if you have a home/Family of the which you are responsible for...you have a door on your home. And you monitor and invite people in on their MERIT. Bad folk don't get to stroll in through your open door.

Common sense applies. Same with Salvation. One can surely be 'saved', and begin to move up...but one can also backslide. "Take heed that ye stand lest ye fall".

IMO, the Bible speaks in 'tongues'/parables; it's paradoxical, for a reason. Just like Creation; those who chose to believe that Life came from the Evolutionary Process can clearly see the evidence for their chosen BELIEF, but not proof...and those who believe that the essence of Energy and Matter has Awareness as it's basis...and that the Evolutionary Process was created, for a reason (such being to give people who choose to value Self over God, won't be forced to do so. If that were to happen, God could be rightfully accused of creating people who are predestined/forced to worship Him...and that would suck).

Big beautiful door.

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I said that salvation is not by works. I made no comment on how blessings will be distributed in heaven as I simply don't know enough to comment, but I know that salvation comes only through faith. That was a major point of contention in the early church between Paul and Peter as it came down to circumcision. Peter believed the Gentiles should be circumcised as the Jews were in accordance with the law. Paul, a very educated Jew, vehemently disagreed saying that forcing the law on the Gentile was adding works when Christ's sacrifice and faith in that sacrifice and resurrection were enough. The Pauline view point carried the day.

I also agree with you that you can fall from grace. Interesting, if you believe in predestination, then falling from grace is not something that is traditionally believed in because if you are predestined to be saved then you have no choice in it and can't fall away.

Yours is a terrible argument. The Israelites defended themselves time and time again. All we’re asking is to come in via the proper channels.

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I wonder how many illegals you have chosen to personally support since you are a christian.How many have you brought into your home and personally fed and clothed? My bet is none. Until you do then you are just a hypocrite.

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I have fed and clothed homeless. Were they illegal? I don't know. I didn't ask as I didn't care. I also have stated previously that I left my job of 17 years at the end of May as I believe God is calling me to find a job that works with those who are hungry, homeless, immigrants, etc. I don't know what that job is, and I don't currently have one. I have stepped out on faith to do that though.

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Show me the verse where it says 'illegal immigrants' and I'll change sides.
Why do people constantly leave 'illegal' off? It makes a huge difference. You are actually talking about 2 different....very different.....things.

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I will say that I don't believe there was a concept of illegal immigrants back then. You had us and them. You had people of your country and the foreigner. The concept of an illegal immigrant is a modern term. I would argue that it wouldn't have even existed at the time of the Revolution. I'm simply saying that the biblical exhortation to take care of the foreigner should be read in the viewpoint of the time which was someone from another land and not someone there on a work visa.

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Where does it stop? Where does it end? What constitutes taking care of the poor and needy? Is it simply feeding them and giving them clothes? Or is it giving them money? Putting a roof over their heads? Providing them with luxuries?

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I don't know that answer, and I don't worry about it. We are called to love those we come across. You can't say well I can't help everyone so I'll help no one. Help those you can and let Jesus guide your heart. I know it's hard as I commonly fail, but I believe very strongly in this as a Christian. It's what sets us apart from the world.

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I said that salvation is not by works. I made no comment on how blessings will be distributed in heaven as I simply don't know enough to comment, but I know that salvation comes only through faith. That was a major point of contention in the early church between Paul and Peter as it came down to circumcision. Peter believed the Gentiles should be circumcised as the Jews were in accordance with the law. Paul, a very educated Jew, vehemently disagreed saying that forcing the law on the Gentile was adding works when Christ's sacrifice and faith in that sacrifice and resurrection were enough. The Pauline view point carried the day. I also agree with you that you can fall from grace. Interesting, if you believe in predestination, then falling from grace is not something that is traditionally believed in because if you are predestined to be saved then you have no choice in it and can't fall away.

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No argument from me against "faith and not works, lest any should boast", L.

The Easterns long ago realized that one's own Self/Ego, is (can be) essentially the devil, as Lucifer was "the shinning angel". In fact, as a fix, they instituted a 'fix' in order to jump the Ego/works hurdle: at a particular point in their spiritual journey, when they get at the 'door'...a 'Guru' comes into their life. The Guru gives the spiritual aspirant the 'gift', of taking any deserving accomplishment out of the spiritual equation.

No whether this flies, I don't know. Myself, I believe that Jesus is the "Only Begotten", with power to remove said Self 'obstacle'. To each their own; people of Love all walk their own path. Good enough. I welcome all friendship. And of course, per Jesus admonition, strive to help those who have not yet seen/committed; such being risky in certain instance. No pain...no gain.

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I believe God gives nations borders

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It’s baffling to me that this received upvotes.

This boards understanding of International Relations is absolutely pathetic.

Your Bible has the story of Ruth, right? How the immigrant is supposed to make the people of their destination theirs, worship their God, etc?

So as a baseline, that bans all Muslim immigration unless they are willing to convert to Christianity.

It bans all central and South American immigration unless they are willing to learn English and stop speaking Spanish.

So, still want to play this game?

Even the Kingdom of God has strict entry procedures.

John 10:1

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“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever does not enter a sheepfold through the gate but climbs over elsewhere is a thief and a robber."

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Luke 13:24-25

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“Strive to enter through the narrow door, for many, I tell you, will attempt to enter but will not be strong enough. After the master of the house has arisen and locked the door, then will you stand outside knocking and saying, ‘Lord, open the door for us.’ He will say to you in reply, ‘I do not know where you are from.’"

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Matthew 7:13-14

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“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

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I do agree that the individual and the state are different, but if I believe that the law is immoral from a Christian point of view, shouldn't I oppose it.

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You can oppose whatever you like, and as a Christian, you have an obligation to follow God's laws before man's, so if the state tells you to do something that God forbids, your responsibility is to defy the order of the state.

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I guess I'm wondering how some Christians don't find it immoral as I do.

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I don't see how protecting one's borders and keeping one's citizens safe in doing so is immoral. It's immoral for the countries where these immigrants are coming from to treat their people so badly, sure, but it's not the responsibility of each state to let in and care for every human being that wants to come in without exception at the expense of its' own citizens.

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Some people in here have given very good answers. I don't necessarily agree with them, but it's a good conversation to have as I certainly am not convinced that I'm always correct in how I interpret my Christian faith.

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It's always good to have these discussions. It's iron sharpening iron.

My advice to you would be to not make the social gospel overtake the actual Gospel of Jesus Christ (if that's what is happening; I know that happens a lot in many denominations these days). We are supposed to love one another and do good to others, but that isn't the purpose of life. The purpose of life is to be conformed to the image of Christ through faith and repentance and to preach the Gospel to all who are afar off so that God would be glorified in the salvation of souls. We need to show love towards mankind, but it's for the goal of the Gospel, not simply to do good, which I'm afraid has become the goal of many Christian denominations these days.