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Message
1
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:24 pm to culsutiger
quote:
I highlighted your deceit.
You can get lower quality power and water from other places. According to your pedantry, that means no monopoly for power or water.
Quality internet service can only be achieved by wired connection. Running this wire suffers from the same issues that make power and water service natural monopolies. Further, ISPs, like power and water companies, provide a commodity. It doesn't matter to the ISP what I do with a megabit of data just as it doesn't matter to the power company what I do with that kilowatt of electricity.
Let me take this a step further and rectify his deceit
A mobile generator provides power. You can get that from home depot.
A bottle of water provides water. You can get that from a grocery store.
Both are, of course, "at a lower quality. But the access is still there."
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:25 pm to CorporateTiger
quote:
There is no one simple definition of a monopoly that we can use here. I would point out that most anti-monopoly activity around the world today focuses on stopping "cartels" which act as monopolies by combining the power of multiple firms to create a de facto monopoly or otherwise restrain the free market.
Cartel activity is treated as a de-facto monopoly. It is still illegal for firms which control upwards of 90% of a market to collude in order to crush the other competition and dominate a market.
Also, monopolies do not have to be nationwide or global to be monopolies. Monopolies can be, and often are, local. If there is only one grocery store in a remote town, that grocery store has a geographic monopoly in that area just like if there is only one mechanic shop or one ISP. That's not necessarily illegal, but it's certainly frowned upon where the market is large enough to support more than one firm.
The problem is that ISP's used local governments to get permission and subsidies to put their cable in public right of ways in exchange for getting to be the sole provider of service in that area. AT&T did the same thing with phone service throughout the 20th century before the Bells were broken up in the 80's.
In most places, the ISP's have colluded to ensure that there are limited options for consumers. Rather than compete, the largest companies chose to collude and keep primarily to their own turf. Basically, rather than having 5 or 6 companies running redundant lines in every municipality to jockey for market share, they divided the nation up into regions, each with rarely more than 2 companies providing services (in Baton Rouge, it's AT&T and Cox). They then used local and state governments to ensure that competing firms (like mom & pop EATEL trying to move into Cox's territory in EBR) were not allowed to run new lines.
These companies are colluding to preserve geographic monopolies and duopolies and should be stopped.
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:27 pm to kingbob
quote:
It is still illegal for firms which control upwards of 90% of a market to collude in order to crush the other competition and dominate a market.
The threshold is much much lower than that. That comes from someone who deals with "competition" laws on a regular basis.
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:28 pm to culsutiger
quote:
You can get lower quality power and water from other places.
You can get access to the power grid outside of a monopoly? Access to the municipal water supply?
I can set up a point to point network with my neighbors to pass packets. That's not access to the internet.
quote:
Quality internet service can only be achieved by wired connection.
Quality is irrelevant to the fact that a provider can give you access to the internet.
quote:
Further, ISPs, like power and water companies, provide a commodity.
No, just...no. quote:
It doesn't matter to the ISP what I do with a megabit of data just as it doesn't matter to the power company what I do with that kilowatt of electricity.
So if a power provider isn't providing you with a certain number of killowatt hours they're no longer a electric utility?
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:29 pm to culsutiger
quote:
I highlighted your deceit.
You can get lower quality power and water from other places. According to your pedantry, that means no monopoly for power or water.
Quality internet service can only be achieved by wired connection. Running this wire suffers from the same issues that make power and water service natural monopolies. Further, ISPs, like power and water
companies, provide a commodity. It doesn't matter to the ISP what I do with a megabit of data just as it
doesn't matter to the power company what I do with that kilowatt of electricity.
Doesn't look like anyone wants to take this on.
eta- I knew someone would answer while I was writing that.
This post was edited on 11/21/17 at 10:31 pm
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:29 pm to northshorebamaman
I just did.
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:30 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
Apparently they do. ROFLMAO
Yeah. The technology, communication, and policy radically affect world trade. Is world trade anywhere near what it was in the 60s?
No those principles have largely changed world wide. Why aren’t we getting in a war with China at this point, because before WWII, that’s what would be occurring. Because our trade and foreign alliance policies have radically changed.
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:30 pm to Centinel
quote:
You can get access to the power grid outside of a monopoly? Access to the municipal water supply?
You can get power from sources other than a grid. You can get water from sources other than a municipality. You aren't actually interested in being intellectually honest about this at all are you?
This post was edited on 11/21/17 at 10:31 pm
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:30 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
No those principles have largely changed world wide. Why aren’t we getting in a war with China at this point, because before WWII, that’s what would be occurring. Because our trade and foreign alliance policies have radically changed.
What does this have to do with economic principles?
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:31 pm to Centinel
quote:
I just did.
See my edit.
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:31 pm to CorporateTiger
quote:
You can get power from sources other than a grid. You can get water from sources other than a municipality. You aren't actually interested in being intellectually honest about this at all are you?
I can send packets to my neighbor using a simply point to point connection.
That's not access to the internet.
You aren't actually interested in being intellectually honest about this at all are you?
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:32 pm to Centinel
quote:
I can send packets to my neighbor using a simply point to point connection.
That's not access to the internet.
I'm fine with agreeing that's not access to the internet.
quote:
You aren't actually interested in being intellectually honest about this at all are you?
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:32 pm to OMLandshark
quote:
Yeah. The technology, communication, and policy radically affect world trade. Is world trade anywhere near what it was in the 60s?
World trade still operates according to economic principles
Good fricking God man.
quote:
No those principles have largely changed world wide.
What
In
The
Actual
frick
You literally don't even know what economics is. It's worse than i thought
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:33 pm to CorporateTiger
Exactly. You can run your rural home off of a windfarm and solar (you might lose power in the middle of the night when the wind is calm and it will be expensive as all get out to set up) while getting your water from a well, but you have to go through an ISP or wireless provider (Verizon and AT&T are both) eventually to get your internet. Oh, and most places don't get reliable LTE service from wireless. That shitte really only works well in the largest of cities, and even there, the dead zones are massive.
This post was edited on 11/21/17 at 10:34 pm
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:34 pm to CorporateTiger
(no message)
This post was edited on 2/15/18 at 11:36 pm
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:35 pm to ShortyRob
quote:
OMLandshark
No way this guy has even taken Econ 101 much less anything else
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:35 pm to kingbob
quote:
Exactly. You can run your rural home off of a windfarm and solar while getting your water from a well, but you have to go through an ISP or wireless provider (Verizon and AT&T are both) eventually to get your internet. Oh, and most places don't get reliable LTE service from wireless. That shitte really only works well in the largest of cities, and even there, the dead zones are massive.
Not a monopoly if there's more than one way to access the internet.
Wired, wireless, satellite. One or all available to all of the lower 48.
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:35 pm to Centinel
quote:
What does this have to do with economic principles?
Having the #2 superpower as your mutual #1 largest trading partner to your own potential detriment if one fails is a new concept. You’d usually go to war with them. Seriously name huge powers that have done this in history?
This post was edited on 11/21/17 at 10:37 pm
Posted on 11/21/17 at 10:36 pm to Centinel
quote:Yes.
Is there a part of the internet you cannot access using a mobile provider?
Once you've spent your data cap in the first 1% of the billing period, you can no longer access any HD video streams for the remaining 99% of the time. And face the facts: video streaming is a very large chunk of internet use today.
So if you want to continue trying this "ISP competition exists" argument on this ridiculous technicality that you can "access" the internet via mobile or satellite providers, you should know that it is totally ineffective. They compete in the same sense that my generator competes with my electric company. IOW they don't.
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