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Started By
Message
re: I think it's time for America to cut social security altogether (serious)
Posted on 8/13/24 at 11:51 am to aTmTexas Dillo
Posted on 8/13/24 at 11:51 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:
We keep trying to convey this.
Yeah I described the same thing but put it in terms of the personalization of people to their taxes in this specific program
quote:
I don't know why it is so difficult to get.
It's a combination of (1) being close to getting the welfare benefits finally (2) feeling silly/embarrassed to fall for pretty clear marketing BS
0
Posted on 8/13/24 at 11:52 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:
Which part would be unconstitutional?
quote:
SS is not a normal "benefit." Every 1¢ of SS contribution the government receives is immediately converted into a US debt obligation. The validity of the public debt of the United States shall not be questioned.
Posted on 8/13/24 at 11:53 am to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:You keep getting corrected because the premise is technically false.
We keep trying to convey this.
Posted on 8/13/24 at 11:54 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
SS is not a normal "benefit." Every 1¢ of SS contribution the government receives is immediately converted into a US debt obligation.
Sounds like some hardcore framing to get the rhetorical result you want.
How is this same framing not available for all other welfare programs?
Posted on 8/13/24 at 11:56 am to NC_Tigah
quote:
because the premise is technically false.
It's not, though. There is no personalized association with the money. The money is taxed and goes into a general fund for the program, and ultimately that fund pays people. with the money taxed.
The intermediate, theoretical conversion steps between these steps aren't really relevant for the discussion. In no way is that money taxed ever the property of the person taxed every again, and the putative SS benefits received down the road are in no way related to the amounts of the recipient taxed years (Decades?) prior
Posted on 8/13/24 at 11:56 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Taxation for welfare programs is applied directly to the welfare program/general budget, not to a debt obligation.
How is this same framing not available for all other welfare programs?
Posted on 8/13/24 at 11:57 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:Negative.
The money is taxed and goes into a general fund for the program
Posted on 8/13/24 at 11:58 am to La Place Mike
[quote]No they wouldn't have. Your math is way off. If a worker averaged 66.1K for 30 years they would have contributed $122,946.00.
[/quote
Okay, twenty trillion dollars. I pulled the numbers off the inter webs. I'm not responsible for accuracy. Between my wife and me, we've pulled over 200K out of SS since 62. And God willing, I will be here another decade plus. Multiply me by 167 million.
You think the government is going to distribute 20 trillion or 60 trillion at some point in the future? With no back fill?
[/quote
Okay, twenty trillion dollars. I pulled the numbers off the inter webs. I'm not responsible for accuracy. Between my wife and me, we've pulled over 200K out of SS since 62. And God willing, I will be here another decade plus. Multiply me by 167 million.
You think the government is going to distribute 20 trillion or 60 trillion at some point in the future? With no back fill?
Posted on 8/13/24 at 11:59 am to John Madden SuperFan
How many millions of dollars are they claiming that the Harris campaign is drawing in every single day?
I haven't been keeping track, but it's gotta be getting up there towards half a billion.
Throw every cent of that into social security, and you'd fix part of the problem.
I haven't been keeping track, but it's gotta be getting up there towards half a billion.
Throw every cent of that into social security, and you'd fix part of the problem.
Posted on 8/13/24 at 12:01 pm to La Place Mike
quote:
Go read a book or two about Social Security and cure your ignorance instead of making shirt up to fit your narrative.
Go take a math course. Then go look at the federal budget. Then go look at demographic trends.
Social Security is a scam and has been from the beginning. Like I posted before the retirement age in 1935 was 65. The average life expectancy for men was 59.9 and women was 63.9. It was never intended to be a pension, annuity, retirement, anything...it was a ploy to buy votes and collect taxes with the promise of other people's money.
Posted on 8/13/24 at 12:02 pm to aTmTexas Dillo
quote:
Okay, twenty trillion dollars. I pulled the numbers off the inter webs. I'm not responsible for accuracy. Between my wife and me, we've pulled over 200K out of SS since 62. And God willing, I will be here another decade plus. Multiply me by 167 million.
You think the government is going to distribute 20 trillion or 60 trillion at some point in the future? With no back fill?
From earlier in the thread...
quote:
For a factual perspective, the max possible SS contribution for today's 65y/o's over a 43yr career is around $230K. Not very much, right? Only $230K ... and that is the most anyone would have contributed.
Avg ROI in the stock market during that 43yr period was 12%.
If that 65y/o's $230K had been invested at just 10% per yr (i.e., a ~17% annual underperformance on market returns), his portfolio holdings for the account would exceed $3M. (i can post the numbers, but $3M+ is accurate)
Let's assume the 65y/o lives 20 more yrs. Max SS monthly payout is about $3850/m or $46.2K/yr. So after 20yrs, at end of life, he would have collected $925K in payments for SS. $925K!!! That's a lot of money, right?
Social security advocates would say, "See? Told ya! That "boomer" only put $230 in, and he'll get $925 out !!!" Those damn "boomers" are killing us!
----
Now let's return to the 65y/o's $230K invested at 10%/yr, $3M+ in total.
At a continued 10% ROI, $3M returns $300K/yr .... not $46.2K. The difference being $253.8K/yr or >$5M over 20 years. So in one instance the residual portfolio at death is zero. In the other, it exceeds $8,000,000.00 (The original .
$8,000,000.00
That, my friends, is the cost of SS. Now granted, neither the $46.2K nor the $300K account for tax loss, nor does the calculation account for continued compounded interest on the $253.8K/yr, nonetheless it's illustrative IMO.
Posted on 8/13/24 at 12:02 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Taxation for welfare programs is applied directly to the welfare program/general budget, not to a debt obligation.
You're not making an argument, just answering with the framing being discussed
Posted on 8/13/24 at 12:02 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Negative.
Where does it go, then?
Posted on 8/13/24 at 12:03 pm to John Madden SuperFan
Pay me back everything I have paid into it plus and appropriate rate of return and I will happily agree
If not I want my full benefits
If not I want my full benefits
Posted on 8/13/24 at 12:04 pm to YouKnowImRight
quote:Negative.
...it was a ploy to buy votes and collect taxes with the promise of other people's money.
It was a ploy to force the public to invest in the government's "New Deal" debt.
Posted on 8/13/24 at 12:05 pm to TigeeDaleC
quote:
make SS voluntary...... think about it, as long as you put that money into a retirement account rather than SS
That's a great idea..... which automatically disqualifies it from being instituted by our corrupt federal government.
We still have to resolve the issue of money running out due to population decrease.
Your idea is what should have been instituted from beginning. Sorry, piece of shite politicians have to stop stealing from us.
Posted on 8/13/24 at 12:06 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:It
Where does it go, then?
goes
directly
into
the
purchase
of ...
US Debt OBLIGATIONS.
Posted on 8/13/24 at 12:06 pm to NC_Tigah
quote:
Negative.
It was a ploy to force the public to invest in the government's "New Deal" debt.
That's fair. FDR and LBJ run a close race with Wilson for being the worst Presidents of the 20th century. We're still feeling the repercussions of all three .
Posted on 8/13/24 at 12:06 pm to 14&Counting
quote:
Pay me back everything I have paid into it plus and appropriate rate of return and I will happily agree
see, NC? It's a meme
Posted on 8/13/24 at 12:07 pm to NC_Tigah
I have invested mine and my wife's SS in a brokerage account. In essence it is the same "thrift plan" I had as a worker. They pay me, it goes into the market. I've not checked my return recently but there has been volatility. You know, dollar cost averaging through the highs and lows. And the real goal in doing this is to pay for assisted living in a nice facility when I no longer know anything and am in diapers.
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