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re: I don’t understand how there can be so many liberal Catholics
Posted on 8/13/25 at 6:16 pm to Canon951
Posted on 8/13/25 at 6:16 pm to Canon951
Maybe
Maybe not
The Word of God is both the things that Jesus vocally handed down to the Apostles, and the New Testament books that the Catholic Clergy assembled. Jesus is the Word of God. All that He handed down to the Apostles is His Word.
Maybe not
The Word of God is both the things that Jesus vocally handed down to the Apostles, and the New Testament books that the Catholic Clergy assembled. Jesus is the Word of God. All that He handed down to the Apostles is His Word.
This post was edited on 8/13/25 at 6:22 pm
1
Posted on 8/13/25 at 7:26 pm to Champagne
quote:
The Word of God is both the things that Jesus vocally handed down to the Apostles, and the New Testament books that the Catholic Clergy assembled. Jesus is the Word of God. All that He handed down to the Apostles is His Word.
If God intended certain teachings to endure throughout time, wouldn’t he have ensured they were recorded in Scripture, as he has done since the time of Moses, so that his instructions would remain accessible and preserved for all of mankind?
This isn’t intended as a critique of the Catholic or Orthodox Church; I’m simply trying to understand the reasoning behind placing authority in knowledge passed down through church leaders rather than Scripture and how we can be sure such teachings weren’t corrupted through human misunderstanding, especially when practices like asking saints to intercede on your behalf are so similar to communing with the dead that they could almost be mistaken for the same thing, which is something Scripture strictly forbids.
This post was edited on 8/13/25 at 7:44 pm
Posted on 8/13/25 at 7:43 pm to Canon951
quote:
Grew up catholic
That doesn’t mean anything. Plenty of people who identify themselves as Catholic have a very shallow understanding of the faith
Posted on 8/13/25 at 8:08 pm to cssamerican
You seem to presume to know how God thinks.
Jesus ascended into Heaven. On that day, he had created and bequeathed to us a Church Church leaders and Church doctrine. For years, that was Christanity. We had the Word of God's verbal teachings, His practices and the Doctrine that He handed directly to the Apostles. During those years that was the entire body of Christian theology. There was no written New Testament during all of these years.
Years later Catholic monks and Priests assembled together the books of the New Testament. You say that now that we have a written New Testament, God wants us to ignore and condemn ALL that Christ Himself directly handed on to the Apostles unless YOU say that it is in the written New Testament.
I say to you - Who made you God? Where can I find God's Command that I need to ignore all that Jesus handed directly to the Apostles and then believe only what YOU say that the written New Testament tells us to believe and to do?
My Faith and my belief is in the Church that Jesus handed on to the Apostles, and the Body of that Faith includes the teachings, doctrine and practices of that Church since Day One of its existence and on Day One, there was no written New Testament.
Where in the Bible does it say that we should condemn all that the Church taught and practiced before the written New Testament was assembled together?
PS. ask grok whether the entire body of the Jewish faith is included in the written Old Testament or whether there are some aspects of the Jewish Faith that are NOT written down in the books of the OT.
Jesus ascended into Heaven. On that day, he had created and bequeathed to us a Church Church leaders and Church doctrine. For years, that was Christanity. We had the Word of God's verbal teachings, His practices and the Doctrine that He handed directly to the Apostles. During those years that was the entire body of Christian theology. There was no written New Testament during all of these years.
Years later Catholic monks and Priests assembled together the books of the New Testament. You say that now that we have a written New Testament, God wants us to ignore and condemn ALL that Christ Himself directly handed on to the Apostles unless YOU say that it is in the written New Testament.
I say to you - Who made you God? Where can I find God's Command that I need to ignore all that Jesus handed directly to the Apostles and then believe only what YOU say that the written New Testament tells us to believe and to do?
My Faith and my belief is in the Church that Jesus handed on to the Apostles, and the Body of that Faith includes the teachings, doctrine and practices of that Church since Day One of its existence and on Day One, there was no written New Testament.
Where in the Bible does it say that we should condemn all that the Church taught and practiced before the written New Testament was assembled together?
PS. ask grok whether the entire body of the Jewish faith is included in the written Old Testament or whether there are some aspects of the Jewish Faith that are NOT written down in the books of the OT.
This post was edited on 8/13/25 at 8:14 pm
Posted on 8/13/25 at 8:15 pm to burger bearcat
My grandmother is a leftist Catholic that attends every week. They are definitely a small minority but they are out there.
Posted on 8/13/25 at 8:16 pm to Champagne
quote:
PS. ask grok whether the entire body of the Jewish faith is included in the written Old Testament
You don’t need to ask Grok, there’s at least two of us here. The Talmud includes all kinds of stuff not in the OT. But only ultra orthodox generally go hard in on it.
Posted on 8/13/25 at 8:19 pm to Champagne
quote:
My Faith and my belief is in the Church that Jesus handed on to the Apostles,
I'm curious about this statement. What do you mean your faith is in the Church that Jesus passed down?
My faith is in Jesus Christ himself so I'm trying to understand what you mean by that statement.
Posted on 8/13/25 at 8:37 pm to Champagne
quote:
Where in the Bible does it say that we should condemn all that the Church taught and practiced before the written New Testament was assembled together?
15 and that from childhood you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.
2 Timothy 3:15-17
While not directly addressing your question, it is clear that scripture alone is all that is needed.
Posted on 8/13/25 at 9:15 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
He didn’t heal lepers to be “radical” but to show that He was God incarnate with the power to heal the sick.
You should use better example next time. Paul, Peter, Elijah, and Elisha all healed the sick and even raised some from the dead. I don’t think you would say they were all God incarnate.
quote:
He didn’t stick up for adulterers but forgave sin. The woman caught in adultery was used to trap Jesus. He didn’t fall for the trap by pitting Rome against Moses. He turned the trap on the scribes (lawyers) and the result was an opportunity to forgive sin. He didn’t merely forgive her, though. He told her to go and sin no more. Forgiveness requires repentance.
Great point. I always wondered though, why if Jesus could and did forgive sins while he was walking on earth in a mortal body, why did he have to die? I’m sure you have a good answer because you are thoughtful and well informed. We could use some of your wisdom because I suspect I’m not the only person who ever wondered about that.
quote:quote:No He didn’t. He rejected greed and worldly-mindedness. He rejected the idolatry of wealth
rejected material wealth
That’s a tough argument to make when Jesus said things such as to sell all your possessions and give the proceeds to the poor. Then there is the one about the camel through the eye of the needle. And more.
Posted on 8/13/25 at 9:41 pm to Champagne
quote:
You seem to presume to know how God thinks.
I know that God does not change, and I do my best to discern what is true. I’m not infallible, so I may be wrong, that’s why I continually question, search, and seek deeper understanding.
quote:
PS. ask grok whether the entire body of the Jewish faith is included in the written Old Testament or whether there are some aspects of the Jewish Faith that are NOT written down in the books of the OT.
I’m aware that Second Temple Judaism placed strong emphasis on oral traditions. I’m also aware Jesus often challenged these traditions for placing rigid rule-keeping above the scriptures moral and spiritual core. He frequently confronted religious leaders over detailed Sabbath regulations, criticizing their focus on minutiae instead of compassion. He also condemned them for burdening people with excessive rules applied without mercy or flexibility. This shows that, according to Jesus, oral traditions could be misunderstood or misused. While not every oral tradition was wrong, their validity had to be measured against the scriptures. That leads me to ask: when something isn’t in scripture, how am I to know it is truly required of me and hasn’t been distorted by human misunderstanding or corruption, as happened with the leaders of Second Temple Judaism?’
Posted on 8/13/25 at 9:44 pm to Harald Ekernson
Squirrelmeister, if I thought you actually cared about the truth, I would happily engage with you and answer your questions.
Posted on 8/13/25 at 10:27 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Squirrelmeister
I only have one meister. I’m a slave of Christ, who is my Kyrios - Adonai.
quote:
if I thought you actually cared about the truth, I would happily engage with you and answer your questions.
You are always eager to engage others even when they don’t explicitly ask for your opinion. You’re so talented with your explanations that I thought you might help me with my question.
Posted on 8/14/25 at 6:31 am to Canon951
No you read too much into that passage
Posted on 8/14/25 at 6:33 am to Canon951
The church teaches faith in the Christ
Posted on 8/14/25 at 8:23 am to Champagne
quote:But not faith alone for justification.
The church teaches faith in the Christ
And also that there may be salvation for members of other religions who have no faith in Jesus, as long as they are sincere in the religious faith that they do have, in their ignorance of the truth.
Posted on 8/14/25 at 10:43 am to burger bearcat
quote:
I don’t understand how there can be so many liberal Catholics
Biden, Colbert, Pelosi, Newsome
Even in my own personal life at my parish. There are a number of people who outright support the entire Democrat party line (abortion, alphabet stuff, race politics, feminism, etc) all of which is in direct opposition to the Church’s teachings. Even with signs out from of Church that say to end abortion, they walk in anyways believing the opposite.
I’m sure there is this same phenomenon in a lot of Protestant churches as well. I just never understood why these people still want to do the church thing with all of these opposing viewpoints?
The easy answer is : It's because Catholicism is by and large the most misunderstood religion, both by "adherents" like the above, and those outside of it.
That's not to say that the names here aren't only using it for political influence, they most often do, but Catholic Social teaching, even under strict Catechism definitions, is actually pretty liberal - people just often miss the application of it.
There's often misinterpretation of the "space" of free will that is embedded in Catholicism that many of these "Catholics" exploit.
Posted on 8/14/25 at 2:19 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
But not faith alone for justification.
Jesus Himself never uttered the phrase "Faith Alone", so, I'm going to have Faith in Him and the Church that He founded here on Earth. He told me to do that. He never said anything like "Faith Alone in Me" and/ or "Bible Alone, ignore my Church."
So, thank you for your input, but, you know that you and I have argued these points for many years.
Catholic Answers can answer any open-minded person's questions.
LINK
Posted on 8/14/25 at 3:51 pm to Champagne
quote:Sola fide and sola scriptura (as the other solas) are biblical based on a systematic approach to the Scriptures, taking into account all that it teaches. Jesus didn't use the word "Trinity", either (and it wasn't mentioned in the Bible anywhere else), and yet I agree with the Roman Catholic church with the affirmation of the Athanasian creed because the concept is taught throughout Scripture even if the word is not used.
Jesus Himself never uttered the phrase "Faith Alone", so, I'm going to have Faith in Him and the Church that He founded here on Earth. He told me to do that. He never said anything like "Faith Alone in Me" and/ or "Bible Alone, ignore my Church."
Jesus, when asked about salvation, frequently affirmed that if one believe upon Him, he will be saved. He didn't say if you believe AND obey the law sufficiently with good works, that you will be saved. If that was the requirement, Jesus confused (and potentially damned) a lot of people who asked Him about salvation by neglecting to mention that they still had to obey the law in addition to believing on Him for salvation.
On the contrary, Jesus taught that belief saves and makes one a good tree, and a good tree will produce good fruit. The fruit proves the tree; the fruit doesn't define the tree. If we are engrafted into Christ, we will bear good fruit. We aren't engrafted to Christ after we bear that fruit, but He is the one that makes us able to produce it.
quote:Indeed, and I enjoy the back-and-forth. It's good for keeping fresh, and it's good for those who haven't witnessed it before.
So, thank you for your input, but, you know that you and I have argued these points for many years.
quote:Here's an interesting one from CA, to my earlier point: How Muslims Can Get to Heaven
Catholic Answers can answer any open-minded person's questions.
Posted on 8/14/25 at 4:17 pm to AOC4PREZ2028
quote:
No one is "pushing" abortion on you.
Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah.
Okay bro.
Posted on 8/14/25 at 4:24 pm to burger bearcat
Those people are not Catholics or Christians of any type. They are sinners going to hell, taking cues from Satan.
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