re: How is it possible that some Protestant churches support gay marriage?

quote:

---

A change of heart leading you to perform good deeds is not having faith alone. Do any of you Protestants actually believe sola fide?

---

Yes, we do, and you are the one who doesn't seem to understand the doctrine.

Faith alone is the instrumental cause of salvation. Christ's obedience is the meritorious cause of salvation that Christians receive through faith alone, not by their works.

When a person has a saving belief and faith in Christ's work, Christ's righteousness is credited to the believers account, wiping away the debt of sin and giving an infinite credit of righteousness. Good works of the believer do not add to or subtract from that account. That's what we mean by sola fide.

Good works are an evidence of saving faith, not a cause of it or even a cooperating partner with it to merit Christ's righteousness and forgiveness for our sins.

Sounds like you are more concerned about who you than who’s you are.

Well said. Everything we are or will be as Christians are because of what Christ did at Calvary.

quote:

---

Think of it how I already explained it: there will be people who do not have saving faith that think that they do because they walked an aisle and said the sinners prayer, or something else that gives them confidence in salvation apart from Christ. If they do fall away, it was because they were never saved to begin with.

---

To me, the once saved, always saved doctrine feels like mental gymnastics. Instead of admitting that someone who stops following Christ loses their salvation, it simply claims they were never truly following Christ to begin with, even if it appeared that way. In reality, this doesn’t change anything, we’re just putting a different spin on the same concept.

To all the non-Protestants out there, think of this like one of those classic denomination disagreements within the Protestant community, subtle, isn’t it?

Scared on blacks? I go to a very well known, large PCA church and I can assure you, there are zero fear of blacks. Many pastors & staff are black men & women.

Also, there’s not a hint of gay marriage in the congregation. I would say that if a church does allow or approve of gay marriage and the teaching is demonstrably against it. It would be a minor anomaly, very obscure.

You’re confusing Protestant with Progressive. They are not the same.

Are Episcopalians not Protestants?

quote:

---

Definitely not a tier 1 issue, but debating is fun

---

Agreed, and note that we have some fundamental disagreements, but from what I can tell, you are a brother in the faith regardless

quote:

---

The “once saved, always saved” doctrine seems problematic when considering the biblical concept of free will. If humans could not choose to walk away from salvation, why could angels, who were created holy and lived in God’s presence, choose to rebel? Scripture shows that angels possessed free will, as seen with the Sons of God in Genesis 6, who left their proper domain and took human wives, resulting in judgment from God: “For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell…” Despite being in the presence of God, they chose to disobey, demonstrating that even holy beings can fall.

---

I believe the angels are in a state of innocence, as Adam was in the garden before the fall. Adam truly have free will to either do what pleases God through obedience or what displeases God through disobedience. Once Adam sinned, original sin spread to all his posterity. It's why we are told that we are dead in our sins and cannot do what pleases God apart from being born again.

I don't believe in the Bible teaches the concept of a libertarian free will in humans after the fall, but that our wills are corrupted and we choose according to the desires of our corrupted wills.

Rom. 8:7–8
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. 8 Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."

1 Cor. 2:14
"The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned."

Eph. 2:1-5
"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved"

Rom. 9 gets into this in more detail, that is God who saves us according to His love and mercy, not according to what we will do (or even believe).

quote:

---

Likewise, Scripture indicates that believers can fall away from faith. Hebrews warns that those who have “once been enlightened” and then “fallen away” cannot be renewed to repentance, demonstrating that even after genuine conversion, a person can choose to turn away.

---

I don't think you are interpreting that verse correctly according to your view on free will. If we have a liberterian free will, then how can one never be renewed to repentance? If we are free to choose or reject, to believe or not believe, then wouldn't we retain such freedom even if we fell away? Clearly that passage is talking about something else.

I believe it is talking about those who have been part of the covenant community of God (the visible Church), and partaken in the means of grace and fellowship with the believers; who have professed faith in Christ and partaken in the sacraments, and yet fully and finally reject Christ. In such a case, the unbeliever is outed for who they are and their heart is hardened so much that they will never return. This is not speaking to those who belong to the invisible Church--those who have been elected by God from the foundations of the world--who will be glorified just as surely as they have been justified (Rom. 8:29-30).

quote:

---

Jesus also emphasizes endurance, stating, “But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.” This principle aligns with the biblical precedent set by the fallen angels, reinforcing the idea that the gift of free will includes the ability to depart from the faith.

---

Jesus' statement doesn't conflict with what I believe, but reinforces that there are some who grow up in the faith as professors who fall away along side those who persevere to the end. You see this in Jesus' parable of the weeds in Matt. 13, where the weeds and the wheat grow up together (speaking of the elect and reprobate in the visible Church). Sometimes the reprobate stays in the visible church their whole lives and die in unbelief, and sometimes they fall away with persecution or due to temptations to worldliness (parable of the sower), but either way, there will be those who do not belong to Christ that will profess His name without a saving faith. God knows who they are, but we don't, so we are to call all men to repent and continue in the faith for their salvation.

quote:

---

Therefore, just as angels exercised their free will and fell from their position, believers too must consciously remain in the faith. Salvation is not a one-time guarantee but a commitment to follow Christ continually. The warnings throughout Scripture against falling away underscore the importance of perseverance, showing that faith requires ongoing dedication rather than an irreversible state of security.

---

I agree completely that there is a call to perseverance, and that call and warning is a means that God uses to actually keep us from falling if we belong to Him. My point is this: none of the Bible verses you have provided contradict what I believe the Scriptures teach, but actually support the notion that there is the visible church and the invisible church, and not all in the visible church belong to the invisible church, but only those who belong to Christ will be kept to the very end.

I also have to say this, especially since you're speaking of angels: if all sentient creatures (at least humans and angels) have a liberterian free will necessarily, then what happens when we humans are glorified in Heaven and all sin is removed from us forever? Can we fall away and choose to sin at that point forward? If so, where do you get that from Scripture, and if not, how can that be guaranteed with a libertarian free will? Likewise for those in Hell. You would think that if they retain their libertarian free will in Hell, that the torments of Hell and the knowledge of Christ at that point would compel them to belief and therefore salvation. How do you reconcile those in Heaven and Hell as eternal places where each group stays put for eternity with the concept of necessary libertarian free will?

We don’t have to prove that God made the right decision. God is perfect. Having to prove him right implies that he can make a mistake.

I do not believe once saved always saved because it implies that we do not have free will and cannot choose to fall out of God’s grace.