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re: How are you remembering Union Soldiers that died in the Civil War
Posted on 5/29/17 at 10:27 pm to WhiskeyPapa
Posted on 5/29/17 at 10:27 pm to WhiskeyPapa
Congrats Walter.
Now if only you could figure out how to hold an intellectual debate and string one idea to the next in a coherent way.
Now if only you could figure out how to hold an intellectual debate and string one idea to the next in a coherent way.
2
Posted on 5/29/17 at 10:30 pm to SiloamHog
quote:
How are you remembering Union Soldiers that died in the Civil War
I'm not. I only remembered the Confederate Soldiers that died in the Civil War. God bless them and may they RIP.
Posted on 5/29/17 at 10:36 pm to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
I went to UT and graduated in 3.5 years
So you're saying you're the tallest midget or the gold medal wining special olympian?
I wouldn't follow you to an all you can eat pussy buffet.
frick off, fig.
-Pressurized2017
:Signature no one cares about but has to scroll through:
Posted on 5/29/17 at 11:46 pm to SiloamHog
This thread got pretty salty!
On June 3rd when we celebrate Confederate Memorial Day, how are you remembering Union Soldiers that died in the Civil War?
On June 3rd when we celebrate Confederate Memorial Day, how are you remembering Union Soldiers that died in the Civil War?
Posted on 5/30/17 at 8:40 am to beerJeep
The debate over Confederate monuments shows how far the U.S. has to go
"“Many of the statues that cause conflict today weren’t built in the years following the Civil War but in the decades following it, and not by widows or daughters of Confederate veterans, but by defiant descendants,” my colleague Monica Hesse wrote.
Blight argues that this mythologizing created the “foundation on which Southerners built the Jim Crow system” and institutionalized racism for decades to come. He notes that, after Trump's pandering to the racial grievances of white voters on the campaign trail, the “Neo-Confederates ... have a fledgling, unsteady, ahistorical victory narrative to follow now in the presidency and the White House.”
On Monday, Trump laid a wreath at Arlington National Cemetery and extolled the sacrifices of American servicemen and women who died in combat. “Their stories are now woven into the soul of our nation, into the stars and stripes on our flag, and into the beating hearts of our great, great people,” Trump said.
But consider another speech delivered in the same cemetery on Memorial Day — in 1871. The oration by Frederick Douglass, the great abolitionist about whom Trump seemed clueless this year, did not applaud the “manly courage” of all Americans killed in the war but the “noble cause” for which some, but not all, perished.
“We must never forget that victory to the rebellion meant death to the republic,” Douglass said, speaking of the Confederacy and the zeal of its leaders to preserve the institution of slavery. “We must never forget that the loyal soldiers who rest beneath this sod flung themselves between the nation and the nation’s destroyers.”
LINK
Good point.
"“Many of the statues that cause conflict today weren’t built in the years following the Civil War but in the decades following it, and not by widows or daughters of Confederate veterans, but by defiant descendants,” my colleague Monica Hesse wrote.
Blight argues that this mythologizing created the “foundation on which Southerners built the Jim Crow system” and institutionalized racism for decades to come. He notes that, after Trump's pandering to the racial grievances of white voters on the campaign trail, the “Neo-Confederates ... have a fledgling, unsteady, ahistorical victory narrative to follow now in the presidency and the White House.”
On Monday, Trump laid a wreath at Arlington National Cemetery and extolled the sacrifices of American servicemen and women who died in combat. “Their stories are now woven into the soul of our nation, into the stars and stripes on our flag, and into the beating hearts of our great, great people,” Trump said.
But consider another speech delivered in the same cemetery on Memorial Day — in 1871. The oration by Frederick Douglass, the great abolitionist about whom Trump seemed clueless this year, did not applaud the “manly courage” of all Americans killed in the war but the “noble cause” for which some, but not all, perished.
“We must never forget that victory to the rebellion meant death to the republic,” Douglass said, speaking of the Confederacy and the zeal of its leaders to preserve the institution of slavery. “We must never forget that the loyal soldiers who rest beneath this sod flung themselves between the nation and the nation’s destroyers.”
LINK
Good point.
This post was edited on 5/30/17 at 8:41 am
Posted on 5/30/17 at 8:52 am to WhiskeyPapa
The USA would have continued to exist had the CSA gained independence, so, Mr. Douglass was engaging in a bit of hyperbole and exaggeration.
But, in the context of his speech, it was a worthy tribute. I don't think that we should take his hyperbole as Historic Truth, however.
But, in the context of his speech, it was a worthy tribute. I don't think that we should take his hyperbole as Historic Truth, however.
Posted on 5/30/17 at 9:02 am to SiloamHog
quote:
Find a new country if you hate America
Wasn't that the point of the CW?
Posted on 5/30/17 at 9:39 am to Champagne
quote:
The USA would have continued to exist had the CSA gained independence, so, Mr. Douglass was engaging in a bit of hyperbole and exaggeration.
No The USA would not continue, because it would have been shown that a dissatisfied minority could break up the government. That would be end of the United States and the end of representative government. What is the point of having representatives if the laws they pass can be ignored or overthrown?
Posted on 5/30/17 at 9:56 am to Champagne
quote:But we should definitely take ahistorical monuments as Historic Truth. That's why it's so important NOT TO DESTROY THEM!!!!! THAT WOULD BE DESTROYING HISTORY ITSELF!!!
I don't think that we should take his hyperbole as Historic Truth, however.
Posted on 5/30/17 at 10:06 am to Mike da Tigah
quote:
Find a new country if you hate America
Wasn't that the point of the CW?
The rebels were trying to steal a country. The United States assumed the debts of the original states and when Texas was admitted the United States assumed its debts too. Just trying to sky off without any reconciliation or recompense was unworthy. The Neo Rebs want to have a tear in their beer over how honorable the rebels were, but that won’t fly at all.
Posted on 5/30/17 at 12:42 pm to WhiskeyPapa
Walt: During the existence of the CSA, did the USA still exist?
If so, then, the USA would have continued to exist during the existence of the CSA, should that CSA existence have extended past 1865.
Right?
If so, then, the USA would have continued to exist during the existence of the CSA, should that CSA existence have extended past 1865.
Right?
Posted on 5/30/17 at 1:42 pm to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
The rebels were trying to steal a country
Interdasting... now please elaborate on how a self governed people go about stealing their own country from themselves.
Hove you ever even read the Declaration of Independence, and are you familiar with a gentleman by the name of Thomas Jefferson, and have you ever read any of his works?
That's a mess in that head of yours buddy, a real hot mess.
Posted on 5/30/17 at 2:24 pm to Champagne
quote:
Walt: During the existence of the CSA, did the USA still exist?
You've got the terms wrong.
There was never a CSA. Had the United States government ceased trying to enforce the laws in the rebel areas, then that would have meant the end of the USA.
There is no single clip of this scene available that I know of, but in the 2012 Lincoln movie by Spielberg, Lincoln tells his cabinet that part of the problem with emancipation was that as far as he was concerned all the state laws were still in force. And state laws protected slavery.
That is why the 13th Amendment was imperative; so that state laws would be superseded.
Also in this movie (and it really happened of course) Lincoln met with Alexander Stephens (they were personal friends) and other CSA emissaries. Lincoln needed not only Congress to pass the 13th amendment he needed a certain number of states to ratify it. He told Stephens he would have enough states to ratify, including 2 or 3 southern states.
And being Lincoln he had been working this bolt for a while with his 10% plan for Free State Constitutions. I believe that Louisiana was the only state that passed one. But Lincoln was counting on several other southern states to ratify and he was certain they would.
This post was edited on 5/30/17 at 2:33 pm
Posted on 5/30/17 at 2:37 pm to Mike da Tigah
quote:
The rebels were trying to steal a country Interdasting... now please elaborate on how a self governed people go about stealing their own country from themselves.
After the victory at Gettysburg, General Meade send a message to Washington - "We have repelled the enemy from our soil." When he heard this message, Lincoln was visibly angry. "When will these fools understand that is all our country!"
The secesh couldn't steal what didn't belong to them.
Posted on 5/30/17 at 2:42 pm to sugar71
quote:
A Tecumseh Sherman thread was deleted recently
Which is odd considering his connection to LSU.
Posted on 5/30/17 at 2:42 pm to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
The rebels were trying to steal a country.
False. The CSA didn't try to gain any new ground. They simply wanted to break away. Wars of Conquest are what you would call "stealing", but the Civil War was not a war of Conquest. Would you call the revolutionary war thievery?
quote:
tear in their beer
Cute play on a great song.
quote:
honorable the rebels were, but that won’t fly at all.
General lee was regarded as one of the most honorable men to grace this earth by men of all sides.
Sooooooooo
Posted on 5/30/17 at 2:52 pm to Mike da Tigah
Since you are confused, here is Lincoln's proclamation of 4/15/61
"Whereas the laws of the United States have been, for some time past, and at the present and now, are opposed, and the execution thereof obstructed, in the states of South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas, by combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, or by the powers vested in the Marshals by law, therefore, I, as Abraham Lincoln President of the United States, in virtue of the power in me vested by the Constitution and the laws, have thought fit to call out forth, and hereby do call out forth the militia of the several states, of the Union, to the aggregate number of seventyfive thousand, in order to suppress said combinations, and to cause the laws to be duly executed. The details, for this object, will be made known immediately communicated to the State authorities, through the War Department.
I appeal to all loyal citizens to favor, facilitate, and aid this effort to maintain the honor, the integrity, and the existence of our National Union and the perpetuity of popular government; and to redress its injurious [in]sults, and injuries wrongs, already too long endured.
I deem it proper to say that the first service assigned to the forces hereby called forth will probably be to repossess the forts, places and property, which have been seized from the government; Union; and, in every event, the utmost care will be observed, consistly with the objects aforesaid, to avoid any devastation; any destruction of, or interference with, property, or any disturbance of peaceful citizens, in any part of the country--
And I hereby command the persons composing the combinations aforesaid to disperse, and retire peaceably to their respective abodes, within twenty days from this date--
Deeming that the present condition of public affairs presents an extraordinary occasion, I do hereby in virtue of the power in me vested by the Constitution, I do hereby convene both Houses of Congress,-- Senators and Representatives are therefore summoned to assemble at their respective chambers, at 12. o,clock, noon, on Thursday the fourth day of July, A. D. 1861 next, then and there to consider, and determine, such measures as, in their wisdom, the public safety, and interest, may seem to demand.
By the President of the United States
See, there it is right there:
"...combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, or by the powers vested in the Marshals by law.
That is all the so-called CSA ever was.
"Whereas the laws of the United States have been, for some time past, and at the present and now, are opposed, and the execution thereof obstructed, in the states of South Carolina, Georgia, Alabama, Florida, Mississippi, Louisiana, and Texas, by combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, or by the powers vested in the Marshals by law, therefore, I, as Abraham Lincoln President of the United States, in virtue of the power in me vested by the Constitution and the laws, have thought fit to call out forth, and hereby do call out forth the militia of the several states, of the Union, to the aggregate number of seventyfive thousand, in order to suppress said combinations, and to cause the laws to be duly executed. The details, for this object, will be made known immediately communicated to the State authorities, through the War Department.
I appeal to all loyal citizens to favor, facilitate, and aid this effort to maintain the honor, the integrity, and the existence of our National Union and the perpetuity of popular government; and to redress its injurious [in]sults, and injuries wrongs, already too long endured.
I deem it proper to say that the first service assigned to the forces hereby called forth will probably be to repossess the forts, places and property, which have been seized from the government; Union; and, in every event, the utmost care will be observed, consistly with the objects aforesaid, to avoid any devastation; any destruction of, or interference with, property, or any disturbance of peaceful citizens, in any part of the country--
And I hereby command the persons composing the combinations aforesaid to disperse, and retire peaceably to their respective abodes, within twenty days from this date--
Deeming that the present condition of public affairs presents an extraordinary occasion, I do hereby in virtue of the power in me vested by the Constitution, I do hereby convene both Houses of Congress,-- Senators and Representatives are therefore summoned to assemble at their respective chambers, at 12. o,clock, noon, on Thursday the fourth day of July, A. D. 1861 next, then and there to consider, and determine, such measures as, in their wisdom, the public safety, and interest, may seem to demand.
By the President of the United States
See, there it is right there:
"...combinations too powerful to be suppressed by the ordinary course of judicial proceedings, or by the powers vested in the Marshals by law.
That is all the so-called CSA ever was.
Posted on 5/30/17 at 3:05 pm to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
The secesh couldn't steal what didn't belong to them.
Complete horseshite, and especially pre-1860 it is..
General Meade was correct in his assessment.
We are not a monolithic entity. We are a union of various sovereign states in the model of the Greek city-states. If what you argue were so, then we would be called the united STATE of America. The South's mistake was in believing it was a non binding union in keeping with the spirit of the Declaration of Independence and the words therin that human beings have an inherent right to choose their own form of government for themselves, and as we know now, might makes right regardless of the foundation of this country even.
That being said, we are still a union of sovereign states complete with their own presidents (governors), Legislatures, and Supreme Courts, and the spirit of self government and rebellion IS the bedrock of this country. It is how we came to be a nation in the first place. When you lose sight of that fact, you've now become a subject, and not a free people.
Posted on 5/30/17 at 3:12 pm to WhiskeyPapa
quote:
When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume, among the Powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation.
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That, to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just Powers from the consent of the governed. That, whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such Principles and organizing its Powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness
Let's cut through the shite shall we?
DO you believe in those words in principle or not?
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