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Posted on 5/7/20 at 12:35 pm to Azkiger
quote:There's a distinction between the revealed will of God and the secret will of God known as His divine decree. God has revealed His desires and His commands to us through special revelation (the Bible), yet God's eternal plan and decree is something that we don't know all about. We don't know why He has determined that one person live to 80 while another die in the womb. We don't know why He saves one house yet not another in a storm. We don't know why He justifies one member of a household by saving faith in His son and not another. Likewise we don't know His specific purpose(s) in allowing the evil of abortion to take place.quote:And the usual Christian response only makes things worse.
Apparently, God's plan must be for millions of babies to get aborted every year.
"But the babies go to Heaven!"
What we do know is that God is holy. We know that He has a purpose for everything He does and allows to be done. We know that all things are done ultimately for His glory. We know all humans are sinful (conceived with a sinful nature) and guilty before God. We know that God is just and must punish sin. These things together allow for us to understand why He can remain holy and allow for sin and evil to exist for a time, knowing that all of it will be judged in His time.
God allows sin to exist but not without judging it. He will judge all sin, either in the sinner or in Christ's atoning work on the cross through faith in that sacrifice. No one is saved apart from Christ, even unborn children. If God so chooses to save a child murdered through abortion, it is His right to do so, and He would do so by imparting saving grace to the child through His Spirit according to His plan of election.
Posted on 5/7/20 at 12:39 pm to lsaltee
quote:God doesn't need anything. It's part of the definition of His perfection: He needs nothing beside Himself.
all beautiful words and imagery but it is still missing the point of a god that requires sacrifice only because he created the situation that requires it.
Why require it at all? why does he need us?
God chose to allow sin and the fall of Adam so that He would ultimately be glorified by sending His son to die for the sins of His enemies. A plan of redemption requires a people to be redeemed.
Posted on 5/7/20 at 12:39 pm to uway
quote:
I'm a believer, but I disagree that we don't have a right to ask questions of God
I agree. I didn't mean to imply otherwise. If he does exist he most certainly would want us to use our minds honestly. I suppose my commentary was just to remind the questioner just how silly it would be to challenge the logic of an omnipotent all knowing God.
IF he has a plan for each person's life as the OP suggests, then it is assuredly without flaw whether or not that person likes what God wants to do with their life or not.
Was just having fun playing the other side of the argument for a bit on my lunch break
Posted on 5/7/20 at 12:42 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
There's a distinction between the revealed will of God and the secret will of God known as His divine decree. God has revealed His desires and His commands to us through special revelation (the Bible), yet God's eternal plan and decree is something that we don't know all about. We don't know why He has determined that one person live to 80 while another die in the womb. We don't know why He saves one house yet not another in a storm. We don't know why He justifies one member of a household by saving faith in His son and not another. Likewise we don't know His specific purpose(s) in allowing the evil of abortion to take place.
So we dont know Gods true plan yet we are just supposed to believe he has the best intentions for us in our next life? The same god that allows suffering now PROMISES you he wont allow it next time. all you have to do is worship him! He promises!
quote:
What we do know is that God is holy
How do you know that? because so far its worship me or else.
quote:
We know that all things are done ultimately for His glory.
oh well there you go. His glory... why does he need such great glory? Why does he need us to glorify him? can hhe not glorify himself enough?
quote:
God allows sin to exist but not without judging it. He will judge all sin, either in the sinner or in Christ's atoning work on the cross through faith in that sacrifice. No one is saved apart from Christ, even unborn children. If God so chooses to save a child murdered through abortion, it is His right to do so, and He would do so by imparting saving grace to the child through His Spirit according to His plan of election.
So he is picking winners and losers and the losers cant complain or question his authority?
again sounds like a game i dont want to play.
Posted on 5/7/20 at 12:44 pm to bfniii
quote:
then you should probably not use that as a criticism because it's ignorant
Oh right, you have the lazy answer for all the hard questions so you're enlightened.
I don't pretend to have answers to hard questions, so I'm ignorant.
This is how this always goes.
Posted on 5/7/20 at 12:45 pm to boosiebadazz
quote:
If those things happen due to the chaotic nature of the universe then that sucks but there is no cosmic blame to pass around. You guys who put forth the idea that God hs a specific plan for each individual life end up saying some absolutely retarded shite trying to justify why a loving God would choose to put cancer in a kid’s body or know and ordain they’ll get sexually abused.
You should separate illness from sexual abuse. It's not difficult to understand the concept that God wills what is good for us (ie has a "plan") but leaves us free so that we may not be slaves, and that our freedom results in evils like sexual abuse.
And no sane person would argue that sexual abuse is "good", but I do argue that living and being sexually abused is better than not existing, because I believe in eternal life.
Painful illness and early death are harder to reconcile with a loving Creator, but if you recognize that suffering and death are just a feature of existence, and you aren't willing to call existence itself bad, then we have to accept that it's not perfect. And we Christians accept that we don't understand some of the things that occur. I personally don't think it makes sense to say "You gave me existence, but it was relatively short and relatively painful, therefore you are bad", when the alternative is non-existence.
Posted on 5/7/20 at 12:45 pm to TCUFan
The right path was laid out for each of us in the teachings of the man deity Jesus the Christ. Beginning with Genesis and running through Revelation the Bible lays out the ONLY way to true peace and serenity in this Life. As if Yahweh (God) sensed that scripture was never going to be enough He choose to come down and take on the form of a man so that He could relate and speak to his creation (man/woman) directly. In fact this Incarnation of God in the person of Jesus the Christ (Hebrew:Yehoshua) is the primary stumbling block to two (of the three) great monotheistic religions (Islam, Judaism & Christianity) today.
Evidence of the challenge that faces all of us is that this wonderful, peaceful, and benevolent Jesus (the Christ) was brutally crucified between two thieves. He suffered unimaginable suffering and humiliation. Every inch of His Sacred Body was beaten and subjected to the most humiliating abuse and insult. At the end of his pilgrimage on earth and shortly before His death on the Cross Jesus turned to his followers and said......
"They will forbid you the synagogue; nay, the time is coming when anyone who puts you to death will claim that he is performing an act of worship to God; such things they will do to you, because they have no knowledge of the Father, or of me." - John 16:2-3
Again, if you look at both ends of Salvation History, as described in the Bible, you see Genesis in the beginning and the Church and Revelation at the end. The Church Jesus the Christ established, and her infancy, is at end of Scripture. Jesus came once, we crucified Him, and he arose from the dead. He will come back.....He said so.
Bottom line, if you follow Jesus Christ Crucified today you'd better hope you look good on wood. Having said that, I take consolation knowing we must be living towards the end of Salvation History. All of creation awaits the return of the Messiah. But here's the secret.....He never really left us.
Gloria Patri!
Evidence of the challenge that faces all of us is that this wonderful, peaceful, and benevolent Jesus (the Christ) was brutally crucified between two thieves. He suffered unimaginable suffering and humiliation. Every inch of His Sacred Body was beaten and subjected to the most humiliating abuse and insult. At the end of his pilgrimage on earth and shortly before His death on the Cross Jesus turned to his followers and said......
"They will forbid you the synagogue; nay, the time is coming when anyone who puts you to death will claim that he is performing an act of worship to God; such things they will do to you, because they have no knowledge of the Father, or of me." - John 16:2-3
Again, if you look at both ends of Salvation History, as described in the Bible, you see Genesis in the beginning and the Church and Revelation at the end. The Church Jesus the Christ established, and her infancy, is at end of Scripture. Jesus came once, we crucified Him, and he arose from the dead. He will come back.....He said so.
Bottom line, if you follow Jesus Christ Crucified today you'd better hope you look good on wood. Having said that, I take consolation knowing we must be living towards the end of Salvation History. All of creation awaits the return of the Messiah. But here's the secret.....He never really left us.
Gloria Patri!
This post was edited on 5/7/20 at 2:04 pm
Posted on 5/7/20 at 12:49 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
yet God's eternal plan and decree is something that we don't know all about.
Well isn't that convenient?
Posted on 5/7/20 at 12:49 pm to Azkiger
quote:
So forget all the pillars of fire, mana from heaven, rivers of blood, talking burning bushes, God needed blood sacrifices to get their attention?
Have you read these message boards and other ones? We are a stubborn, thickheaded people.
quote:
I get the gravity of the offering, but why tie it to blood sacrifices alone? Let's say I chose to burn all my farm equipment instead, and that sacrifice was valued at more than my most prized cow, would that also work? Does that not show how serious I am about honoring God and trying to atone for my transgressions? What about giving the value of my most prize cow, or even more, to a poor family in need?
What I'm trying to get at is that the blood sacrifice thing seems quite arbitrary. Sure you can justify it by saying it checks boxes A, B, and C. But so do a lot of other actions, yet those actions don't, at least according to my understanding of the Bible, grant you atonement.
We have the example in the bible where Abel's animal's sacrifice was praised by God by Cain's sacrifice of harvest foods was rejected by God. Here, is a writeup of how they extrapolated things based on this: https://answersingenesis.org/bible-characters/cain/why-didnt-god-respect-cains-offering/
The giving of a cow to a poor family wouldn't be an atonement. That would be more like a way of trying to bribe your way into heaven. Like if you got charged with a ticket and had to a pay a fine, you couldn't say but I gave money to charity so could you please let me out of this ticket. Your good work wouldn't absolve you of your wrong doing. You'd still need to pay the fine.
The bigger issue in your argument here seems to be that you don't like how God does things. It is the if I was in charge, I would do it differently line of thinking. Well, that is fine but it isn't up to you or us. You and I are not God and as I said to the other poster, we aren't in a comparable position to even judge his actions.
Posted on 5/7/20 at 12:50 pm to uway
quote:
I personally don't think it makes sense to say "You gave me existence, but it was relatively short and relatively painful, therefore you are bad", when the alternative is non-existence.
lots of people who commit suicide probably felt different.
non existence was not even a choice we were given. we were forced into this world with only one way out or you burn in hell FOR ALL ETERNITY. that cant be justified by an all loving creator. sounds like a selfish little kid that is forcing you to play by his rules or he will just take the ball home and never come back again.
Posted on 5/7/20 at 12:57 pm to lsaltee
quote:1) God cannot lie, and 2) Do we have any other choice? Rejection of God's promises is how we fell in to sin in the first place.
So we dont know Gods true plan yet we are just supposed to believe he has the best intentions for us in our next life? The same god that allows suffering now PROMISES you he wont allow it next time. all you have to do is worship him! He promises!
quote:God is the highest good there is and the very definition of perfection. Why would we not worship God? He created us to worship Him; that's our very purpose. An object we create for a purpose that doesn't fulfill that purpose is usually discarded as being trash. Why can't God destroy those who don't do what we were created to do?
How do you know that? because so far its worship me or else.
quote:He doesn't need anything, even our glory. He created us to worship and glorify Him because He wanted to, not because He had to. And He should be glorified because there is no one and nothing higher than Himself.
oh well there you go. His glory... why does he need such great glory? Why does he need us to glorify him? can hhe not glorify himself enough?
quote:Everyone is a loser by default. He makes losers into winners by His sovereign choice in election. He doesn't have to as He owes no one anything, yet He chooses to save some out of mercy.
So he is picking winners and losers and the losers cant complain or question his authority?
again sounds like a game i dont want to play.
Posted on 5/7/20 at 12:58 pm to BayouBlitz
quote:Not really. It'd be nice to know what goes on inside the mind of God but He's God and we aren't. We aren't privy to the inner workings of His mind, but at least He has condescended to us by revealing some things. It's why we have the Bible.
Well isn't that convenient?
Posted on 5/7/20 at 1:04 pm to lsaltee
quote:
we were forced into this world with only one way out or you burn in hell FOR ALL ETERNITY
Who says?
Even if that is true, who really understands the entirety of that "one way out"?
Certainly not the type of people whose message and mode of delivery drive people AWAY from that one way.
We were told by Jesus, we believe, that he is the way, the truth, and the life. Those of us who believe in him, then, find comfort in that. But does it mean those that don't currently believe in him and who seem destined by circumstances never to believe in him are going to be damned for their disbelief?
I do believe in hell, but I believe that people knowingly choose to go there. Why would anyone choose that? It's a question worth considering. It's helpful to think about the meaning of the word "choice". If one doesn't understand the options, can he be considered to be making a choice?
Can an abused and perpetually depressed young person who has no vision of the good and chooses suicide be said to be CHOOSING eternal damnation? If so, I don't understand it, and it doesn't comport with my experience of what I believe is God.
This post was edited on 5/7/20 at 1:09 pm
Posted on 5/7/20 at 1:06 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
1) God cannot lie, and 2) Do we have any other choice? Rejection of God's promises is how we fell in to sin in the first place.
according to who? The bible? the book written by man?
quote:
God is the highest good there is and the very definition of perfection. Why would we not worship God? He created us to worship Him; that's our very purpose. An object we create for a purpose that doesn't fulfill that purpose is usually discarded as being trash. Why can't God destroy those who don't do what we were created to do?
so we are his toys? he didnt need us but he created us anyway, put us on a path through suffering and if we lose faith that he is real we suffer for eternity?
quote:
He doesn't have to as He owes no one anything,
my point exactly. why are we choosing to believe his words when he chooses us to die or suffer so nonchalantly. we are his pawns according to the book. doesnt seem like he created us out of need therefore he doesnt need us to exist but he created us anyway. Why? to show what he can do? or to make us suffer with a promise of no suffering if we follow him only?
How do you justify that people several thousand years ago got it right? That what they wrote down is the absolute truth with no wiggle room?
Posted on 5/7/20 at 1:16 pm to lsaltee
quote:
How do you justify that people several thousand years ago got it right? That what they wrote down is the absolute truth with no wiggle room?
Legitimate questions. A partial answer for me is that I believe God put the question in our hearts (there is substantial evidence that all cultures practice religion of some sort) and therefore owed us an answer. It makes sense to me that would answer the question. I would actually want to ask him why he waited so long to provide the answer, as opposed to saying that "several thousand years ago" was too early to be believed now.
quote:
doesnt seem like he created us out of need therefore he doesnt need us to exist but he created us anyway. Why? to show what he can do? or to make us suffer with a promise of no suffering if we follow him only?
Eta: the answer to "why did God create us" is that he loves us.
If I had a priori knowledge that one of my children would suffer, it wouldn't stop me from creating them, because I love them. Love is creative, and existence is better than nonexistence.
Anyway, we don't have to answer questions like "why did an all-knowing God create someone who would suffer horribly as a child" because, logically God cannot know what is not knowable, thus he can't know us before we exist.
This post was edited on 5/7/20 at 1:25 pm
Posted on 5/7/20 at 1:22 pm to TCUFan
quote:
God Has A Plan For Your Life
quote:
E. Michael Jones
What's the jewish plan?
Posted on 5/7/20 at 1:36 pm to roadGator
quote:
devout atheists.
Why do people feel the need to label beliefs?
Posted on 5/7/20 at 1:37 pm to cwill
quote:
What's the jewish plan?
Please stay on topic rather than trying to derail. We are focusing on God's plan rather than the individual.
Posted on 5/7/20 at 1:37 pm to FATBOY TIGER
Why not have 590 genders?
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