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re: Free will is a thing no?
Posted on 9/16/25 at 1:44 am to drewb808
Posted on 9/16/25 at 1:44 am to drewb808
I read a lot of things by neuroscientists - including things about scans of the brain when people are asked to make decisions - that concludes on a scientific level...
You have a brain, which we will think of as a computer.
You have a "mind," a consciousness, which we will think of as an operating system running on that computer.
Your mind is shaped by your experiences, things you learn, and your conscious thoughts.
Your brain came a bit preloaded with instincts and a lot of hereditary programming (Epigenetics is another wormhole to fall down in all of this...).
When you sleep, it's somewhat like when you let your computer sleep and it automatically does updates and defragments and arranges memory blocks... your mind is "offline" and parts of your brain, your subconscious, take over.
When they've done scans and asked subjects to make decisions, what the scans revealed is that a part of the brain associated with the subconscious lights up and milliseconds later sends signals to a part of the brain that is more involved with consciousness and language... so your subconscious is making the decision and transmitting that to a part of the brain, a part of the mind that convinces you that you are consciously making the decision.
I'm probably doing a shite job of trying to explain this, but search out the subject for people who really know what they are talking about.
Now, let's keep all that between us, right, because this is dangerous!
We don't need people thinking they have a defense for their actions...
and that brings us to a neuroscientist's joke on the subject:
"A defendent is charged with murder, and he pleads not guilty, insisting to the Judge...
'I have no free will. My subconscious brain decided to commit murder and made me do it. I have a special witness, a neuroscientist, to testify on my behalf!'
After hearing the testimony of the neuroscientist, the Judge says
'I am convinced, I find YOU not guilty!
However, your brain is guilty, and for that it must serve a life sentence.'"
I read all of this stuff probably a decade and a half ago.
And when I make a decision... I know I'm not really consciously making it... so I question it. But am I consciously making better decisions or is my brain factoring in that questioning to manipulate me to do something? Though I have cut way down on doing "impulsive stupid shite," or is that age and wisdom and my subconscious getting tired of all that stuff? “Improve your subconscious” is kind of my goal.
You have a brain, which we will think of as a computer.
You have a "mind," a consciousness, which we will think of as an operating system running on that computer.
Your mind is shaped by your experiences, things you learn, and your conscious thoughts.
Your brain came a bit preloaded with instincts and a lot of hereditary programming (Epigenetics is another wormhole to fall down in all of this...).
When you sleep, it's somewhat like when you let your computer sleep and it automatically does updates and defragments and arranges memory blocks... your mind is "offline" and parts of your brain, your subconscious, take over.
When they've done scans and asked subjects to make decisions, what the scans revealed is that a part of the brain associated with the subconscious lights up and milliseconds later sends signals to a part of the brain that is more involved with consciousness and language... so your subconscious is making the decision and transmitting that to a part of the brain, a part of the mind that convinces you that you are consciously making the decision.
I'm probably doing a shite job of trying to explain this, but search out the subject for people who really know what they are talking about.
Now, let's keep all that between us, right, because this is dangerous!
We don't need people thinking they have a defense for their actions...
and that brings us to a neuroscientist's joke on the subject:
"A defendent is charged with murder, and he pleads not guilty, insisting to the Judge...
'I have no free will. My subconscious brain decided to commit murder and made me do it. I have a special witness, a neuroscientist, to testify on my behalf!'
After hearing the testimony of the neuroscientist, the Judge says
'I am convinced, I find YOU not guilty!
However, your brain is guilty, and for that it must serve a life sentence.'"
I read all of this stuff probably a decade and a half ago.
And when I make a decision... I know I'm not really consciously making it... so I question it. But am I consciously making better decisions or is my brain factoring in that questioning to manipulate me to do something? Though I have cut way down on doing "impulsive stupid shite," or is that age and wisdom and my subconscious getting tired of all that stuff? “Improve your subconscious” is kind of my goal.
This post was edited on 9/16/25 at 1:47 am
1
Posted on 9/16/25 at 1:49 am to Lee B
Yea my spirit prolly just needs to ride too
Posted on 9/16/25 at 1:52 am to Kafka
quote:
We must believe in free will - we have no choice
I agree!
We don't have a choice, we must believe in free will.
And I don't believe in free will, but I have to believe in free will. There's no other way to live. Seriously.
Posted on 9/16/25 at 2:23 am to Lee B
You are onto something
Posted on 9/16/25 at 2:25 am to Lee B
You know what’s funny is it is like that movie Black Swan. You think you have control…but you don’t
Posted on 9/16/25 at 6:43 am to FooManChoo
quote:
There are Lutherans, Anglicans/Episcopalians, and Reformed Baptists that also take the Bible at its word when it says God predestines.
All bible only believers do as well. We just don’t all subscribe to TULIP, or lordship salvation, and so predestination and the elect is something that happens to believers once they place their complete faith in the finished work of Jesus in our stead on the cross that was actually our death penalty he took on our behalf..
In my estimation, John 3:16 alone reinforces man’s free will in no uncertain terms, and if there is one central theme of the Gospel, it’s in who do we trust in for our salvation. and If it’s even 1% placed in me and my abilities, I’m saving myself, because I’m relying upon myself, my behavior, my ability to keep myself saved, or demonstrate it, and not the finished work of Jesus, who is the only savior of mankind who we can only accept and approach by grace through faith alone. The spotlight is always on Christ, not on me. This is a lesson that took me years to begin to come to terms with for my salvation, my biblical assurance, peace and relationship as it comes to sanctification and sin. It took me a long time to realize my standing with Christ is based on what He did, not what I do, and my flesh is a dead man walking, but my spirit man from my new birth is sealed with the promise, and seated in heavenly places according to scripture. It’s certainly not from anything I’ve done or will do in the future in the flesh, but what Christ has already done on my behalf, and when He died for all of my sins, that means all of them. If not, then I’m working for it.
Posted on 9/16/25 at 6:50 am to LSU82BILL
Just because God knows all things doesn't mean He causes a person to make bad/evil choices.
God knows no time. He has no beginning and no end. Time is ever present to God.
God knows no time. He has no beginning and no end. Time is ever present to God.
Posted on 9/16/25 at 6:57 am to drewb808
96. Christ did not die for the predestined only.
109. There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
110. There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.
120. God, by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness.
121. God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection.
122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible.
109. There is a supernatural intervention of God in the faculties of the soul, which precedes the free act of the will.
110. There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.
120. God, by His Eternal Resolve of Will, has predetermined certain men to eternal blessedness.
121. God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection.
122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not irresistible.
Posted on 9/16/25 at 6:58 am to drewb808
That 30-06 didnt shoot itself.
Now.
A Sig 320 might just jump off the table and start marking time
Now.
A Sig 320 might just jump off the table and start marking time
Posted on 9/16/25 at 6:59 am to drewb808
Did you post this on a dare? We crave for more on this topic.
Posted on 9/16/25 at 7:02 am to drewb808
quote:
Free will is a thing no?
I used to think, yes absolutely.
I still think it's there but it's much more limited than I originally believed.
Every decision by a human is ultimately shaped by prior causes, such as biology, environment, and past experiences, which leans in the direction of a more deterministic universe.
This post was edited on 9/16/25 at 7:11 am
Posted on 9/16/25 at 7:02 am to drewb808
The Left only thinks white people have free will.
Posted on 9/16/25 at 7:06 am to drewb808
Free Will from our POV and Predestination from God’s. Everything that can happen, already has. Einstein was right.
Posted on 9/17/25 at 10:13 pm to Mike da Tigah
quote:Election (choosing) is what God does to and for us. If His choice is only based on us choosing Him first, then that isn’t election, at least not on His part.
…predestination and the elect is something that happens to believers once they place their complete faith in the finished work of Jesus in our stead on the cross that was actually our death penalty he took on our behalf..
The biblical account of election is very clear: God doesn’t choose because the object of election loves Him first or is better than others or has done anything worthy of it. This is true for the Old Testament and New Testament.
God chose Israel (the old covenant church) out of the nations and even said it wasn’t because of anything good in themselves or because they were offer or better than any other nations, but only because He set His love on them (Deut. 7:6-8; 9:4-6).
Even Jacob (Israel) was chosen by God over his brother, and it wasn’t because he was better or more faithful than Esau (Jacob seems to be quite the rascal compared to Esau), but because God chose him before either had done anything good or bad (Rom. 9:10-13).
Likewise, Christians are those chosen by God based on His sovereign choice rather than ours.
Ephesians 1:4-5 emphasizes God’s election before the foundation of the world and according to the purpose of His will, not our will.
John 6:37,44 also highlights that only those chosen by God can come to Him, and because He chooses them, they will come to Him. His choice precedes their ability to respond.
Acts 13:48 also demonstrates that all those “appointed to eternal life” believed. The appointment (election) preceded their belief.
Lastly, Romans 8:28-30 demonstrates the “golden chain” of salvation. It begins with those who are called according to God’s purpose (not their will). The chain starts with those whom God foreknew. Notice that the object of God’s foreknowledge is not any choices or belief, but the object is a people. The “knowledge” here is not of mere intellectual awareness, either, but of the intimate knowing of someone else (like Adam “knew” Eve and they had a child). God selected a people for Himself based on His sovereign choice and set His love upon them for His own glory.
quote:That verse doesn’t speak of God’s election, though. It speaks to the outcome of belief, and that anyone who does believe will be saved. It doesn’t speak to who can believe, though. Jesus spoke to who can believe a few verses earlier when He said that only those who are “born again” will have eternal life.
In my estimation, John 3:16 alone reinforces man’s free will in no uncertain terms, and if there is one central theme of the Gospel
John 3:16 doesn’t say that anyone can believe, but only that anyone who does believe (the elect) will be saved.
If I said whosoever dunks a basketball will be given $10, I’m not saying that everyone can dunk a basketball, but it is an offer of $10 to any and all who dunks the ball. The offer of the gospel is to everyone, but not everyone can believe (John 10:26).
quote:Amen to every word of this!
it’s in who do we trust in for our salvation. and If it’s even 1% placed in me and my abilities, I’m saving myself, because I’m relying upon myself, my behavior, my ability to keep myself saved, or demonstrate it, and not the finished work of Jesus, who is the only savior of mankind who we can only accept and approach by grace through faith alone. The spotlight is always on Christ, not on me. This is a lesson that took me years to begin to come to terms with for my salvation, my biblical assurance, peace and relationship as it comes to sanctification and sin. It took me a long time to realize my standing with Christ is based on what He did, not what I do, and my flesh is a dead man walking, but my spirit man from my new birth is sealed with the promise, and seated in heavenly places according to scripture. It’s certainly not from anything I’ve done or will do in the future in the flesh, but what Christ has already done on my behalf, and when He died for all of my sins, that means all of them. If not, then I’m working for it.
The problem is that if salvation is based on man’s free choice rather than God’s free choice, man can boast in his faith as a work worthy of salvation rather than a free act of God’s grace. If God has to look ahead in time to see what I’ll do before He saves me, then His saving me was ultimately based on what I did. However the message of the gospel is what you described, that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us (Rom. 5:8).
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