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1
Posted on 8/20/25 at 5:47 pm to SECSolomonGrundy
so what do you base your hardline opinion about these things on? You never answered my question.
Posted on 8/20/25 at 7:22 pm to Canon951
quote:
what do you base your hardline opinion about these things on?
That Catholics are Christians? Well, they worship Jesus.
That the endtimes prophecy is bullshite? Matthew 24:36
That the writers of the gospel didnt actually know Jesus? You tell me which ones did. Maybe im wrong.
What else you got?
Posted on 8/20/25 at 11:11 pm to wackatimesthree
quote:
wackatimesthree
Very fine précis respecting the New Testament’s dating and reliability.
70 AD is compelling as were your other points.
The outrageous attempts to put St. John’s gospel first in the 200s, then 150, 125, and finally 93-97 AD.
It’s St. John’s finely tuned portrait of Jesus’s divinity that has liberal scholars heads on fire and they have worked hard to push as far back from the events John recorded.
Anyway great work.
Posted on 8/20/25 at 11:39 pm to SECSolomonGrundy
quote:
You are grasping at straws dude...But dont act like that gobbledygook that you wrote is anything close to logical.
I laughed so hard at this I almost spit out my drink.
quote:
None of the authors of the gospel were with Jesus. Fact.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 12:05 am to Mr. Misanthrope
quote:
Anyway great work.
Thank you.
quote:
It’s St. John’s finely tuned portrait of Jesus’s divinity that has liberal scholars heads on fire and they have worked hard to push as far back from the events John recorded.
Well, it's central to their false claim that Jesus never claimed to be God and the Gospel writers "evolved" the theology over time.
But again, looking at Paul's letters—which he wrote over a period of 15-20 years—there is absolutely no evidence of any "evolving" theology. The entire Gospel is presented intact from the letters that scholars agree he wrote first, and it doesn't change as he keeps writing.
Besides, if the Jewish religious leaders didn't realize that Jesus was quoting Psalm 110 and Daniel chapter 7 and claiming to be equal with God, then why did they consider what He said blasphemy in Mark 14?
Just claiming to be the Messiah was not blasphemy. Several figures emerged in that time period claiming to be the Messiah and none of them were executed.
The blasphemy part was claiming to be God, which was not what the Jews expected the Messiah to be.
And that was in Mark, which is overwhelmingly regarded as the first Gospel written.
There is an interesting interpretation of Revelation that is gaining traction around the Biblical scholar circles (that apparently hearkens back to some early church Fathers) wherein a good portion of that book mirrors very closely the account of Joshua and Jericho. The idea is that while some of Revelation is still set in the future from our perspective, some of it is a symbolic re-telling of that account from the Old Testament written by John to Christians being persecuted by Nero.
If true, this is another indication that even John was written pre-70 A.D.
And there are other bits of evidence, such as John writing of the Pool of Bethesda. He wrote about it in the present as though it still existed, not the past, but that Pool was destroyed along with the Temple in 70 A.D.
Also, we know that James was martyred in 64 A.D. and his death was reported in Acts.
We know that Peter and Paul were martyred in 67-68 A.D. and their deaths are not recorded in Acts.
We also know that the destruction of the Temple was the culmination of three years worth of siege on Jerusalem, so it also makes no sense that anyone writing anything during that time period would have not have included that historical account.
So we know Acts was still being written in 64 A.D., but was finished by 67 A.D., and John was most likely finished before 67 A.D. as well.
Basically all the available evidence indicates that all the Gospels were written pre-70 A.D. There are two reasons the secularists want to claim late dating:
1. They don't want to admit that Jesus could have prophesied the destruction of the Temple
2. They want to discount all the miracles by claiming that the Gospels were written so late that there were no eyewitnesses alive to dispute them so the writers could have written anything they wanted.
Basically, they start with, "How do we explain this so that we remove all supernatural phenomena from it?" and then they reverse-engineer that goal instead of looking at the actual evidence and following where it leads.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 1:22 am to mudshuvl05
This is not about the mystery whore of Babylon Catholicism. You guys weren't around until 300 AD and changed all the laws and customs that God gave us believers. You changed the Sabbath, the Holy days, the dietary laws. Catholicism is mixed with idol worship and all types of ancient Babylonian rituals like mother and son worship. Syncretism, look it up.
Ths was about Israel and God not being through with it. Stay on topic.
Ths was about Israel and God not being through with it. Stay on topic.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 5:55 am to SECSolomonGrundy
quote:
That the writers of the gospel didnt actually know Jesus? You tell me which ones did. Maybe im wrong.
Umm...Matthew and John? Mark was a companion of Peter and was probably present during Christ's time. The Gospel of Mark is generally attributed to being Peter's account by some scholars. You do know that there were more than 12 people that followed Jesus around right?
Then there are the epistles which Peter wrote 2 of them, John again wrote 3 epistles and Revelation. Then we have Paul who claims to have had a direct revelation from Christ on the road to Damascus and was taught by him for 3 years and he wrote almost all of the new testament.
On Matthew 24:36. Jesus is talking about the day/hour of his return.
Catholics as Christians? Unless a man be born again, he cannot enter the kingdom of heaven. That applies to catholics, protestants, jews, etc. across the board.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 7:01 am to Canon951
quote:
mm...Matthew and John? Mark was a companion of Peter and was probably present during Christ's time. The Gospel of Mark is generally attributed to being Peter's account by some scholars. You do know that there were more than 12 people that followed Jesus around right?
You’re assuming that they actually wrote those gospels and epistles.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 7:02 am to prattalumni
quote:
prattalumni
lol. The dietary laws were changed in the 300s A.D.?
Posted on 8/21/25 at 7:50 am to Canon951
quote:
Do you read the scriptures yourself or do you just listen to your Priest?
I actually minored in world religion. I imagine I read the Bible more times in four years than you have your entire life.
Posted on 8/21/25 at 9:04 am to wackatimesthree
quote:
Well, God didn't "choose" Israel. As in, He didn't look down upon the Earth and pick them out from among other peoples.
Exactly, 100%.
“When the Most High (Elyon) gave to the nations their inheritance,
when he divided the sons of Adam,
he fixed the borders of the peoples
according to the number of the sons of God (El).
9But the LORD’s (YHWH) portion is his people,
Jacob his allotted inheritance (nachalah).”
The Hebrew word used is “nachalah” which always means an inherited property passed from one person to another - normally a father to a son. Example is from Numbers.
“ And you shall speak to the people of Israel, saying, ‘If a man dies and has no son, then you shall transfer his inheritance (nachalah) to his daughter.”
Here’s another from Proverbs 19.
“House and wealth are inherited (nachalah) from fathers, but a prudent wife is from the Lord.”
This concept of God (El the most high) giving to his favorite son the LORD (YHWH) his inheritance was so important to the early church that Pope/Saint Clement quotes the Septuagint version in 1 Clement 29:2:
“For thus it is written: ‘When the Most High divided the nations, when He dispersed the sons of Adam, He fixed the boundaries of the nations according to the number of the angels of God. His people Jacob became the portion of the Lord, and Israel the lot of His inheritance (kleronomía).’”
The same Greek word Clement used is also used in Luke 12:8:
“Someone in the crowd said to him, “Teacher, tell my brother to divide the inheritance (kleronomía) with me.””
These biblical verses preserve the original beliefs of separate deities. A high God - the Father, and his subordinate son - the great Angel - called the Lord, before the heresies like the Trinity were fabricated. Philo of Alexandria referred to the Logos as created by God and subordinate to God and he called the Logos “Deuteros Theos” (a second god). Justin Martyr called the Logos “Heteros Theos” (another god) in his dialog with Trypho. The earliest true Christians understood Jesus to be a separate god, but fully subordinate and one in purpose to God the Father, and this is evident in John 1:1c as the Logos is called “a god” or “divine” and is NOT called “the God”.
The Lord Jesus didn’t choose Israel, but rather his Father, the high God, gave the people group of Israel as inherited property to his favorites and most special son and Angel - the Lord Jesus Christ (pre-incarnate). The Lord was prophesized to one day inherit all the nations (Psalm 82) when he judges the heavens and the earth, so at the time the psalmist was writing, the Lord Jesus did not have authority over the whole earth (only Israel) but his brothers - the other sons of God - had that authority over the other nations. Those other gods (of Greece and Persia) is who Daniel records as fighting against Gabriel and Michael. Those other gods is who Paul struggles against in Ephesians 6:12). Sure only God through his son Jesus is the only god worthy of worship but all those other gods are real and do exist and do have power over things in heaven and earth.
For any who claim “there is only one God” you are being duped.
ETA: The point is that there are multiple gods, and one God gave inherited property to another god (his son the Lord). One cannot give oneself inherited property, nor can one receive inherited property from oneself. The Trinity is a post-biblical false rationalization meant to fix a problem that never existed in the first place.
This post was edited on 8/21/25 at 9:40 am
Posted on 8/21/25 at 10:33 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
The dietary laws were changed in the 300s A.D.?
Yes. It wasn't Jesus or Paul. Find a new understanding of Peter's vision.
Posted on 8/22/25 at 3:44 pm to prattalumni
quote:Jesus fulfilled the law and Paul explained that fulfillment and applied it towards the Jewish ceremonial laws, including the dietary laws (Col. 2:16-23; Rom. 14:13-23; 1 Tim. 4:3-5).
Yes. It wasn't Jesus or Paul.
Posted on 8/22/25 at 4:23 pm to FooManChoo
quote:
Jesus fulfilled the law and Paul explained that fulfillment and applied it towards the Jewish ceremonial laws, including the dietary laws (Col. 2:16-23; Rom. 14:13-23; 1 Tim. 4:3-5).
I respect you brother, but politely disagree. Arguably, I observe the feasts and colossians 2 is defending my position. Do you observe new moons, or feast days? These were still observed until roughly 300CE when catholicism began to have more and more anti-messianic sentiment. The first entury believers still observed all these things. These verses directly correlate to the added law by the pharisees and not God's Divine Torah. (Unril heaven and earth pass away, Not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until all is fulfilled, last I checked heaven and earth are not gone, therefore the Torah still stands).
Now as far as Romans 13, Paul's concern here isn't whether Torah laws are valid, but how believers with different levels of Torah knowledge and practice can live together peacefully. The "weak" and "strong" aren't categories of Torah-observant versus non-observant, but rather refer to different understandings within the believing community.Verses 14-15 - Contextual Understanding:"I am convinced, being fully persuaded in the Lord Jesus, that nothing is unclean in itself. But if anyone regards something as unclean, then for that person it is unclean."From a Messianic view, Paul isn't overturning kashrut (dietary laws) here. The Greek word "koinos" (unclean) refers to ritual impurity, not the fundamental distinction between clean and unclean animals in Leviticus 11. The issue is likely about:Meat offered to idols, Food prepared by Gentiles without proper ritual washing vegetables that might have been fertilized with unclean substances, etc.
And finally in 1Timothy, here is described the practice of that like the Nicolaitans, which many of their practices resemble that of the belief of the Roman church...forbidding to marry (their priests) forcibly abstaining from clean meats (ex. fish on fridays). Which none of those things are ever forbidden in Torah, like for any reason.
Again I understand these positions, this is something I came to knowledge of 20 years ago and believe that catholicism is mostly the reason why the modern church has become estranged to the ways of God. The feast days are not Jewish days. They are God's Holy appointments when he will meet with man for the plan of salvation. The first four of these teach the death, burial, resurrection, and the falling of the Holy Spirit fulfilled to the LITERAL day. Why then would these not be important for believers today? The last three teach the Rapture/Resurrection, the 2nd Coming, and the Milennial reign of which are YET to be fulfilled.
Again the main issue is that many think we observe these to earn salvation, or try to keep it. Not true! We observe these BECAUSE we are saved in Messiah Yeshua. I understand though our fundamental differences and I still call you brother. Just wanted to offer my perspective. Shalom brother.
This post was edited on 8/22/25 at 4:30 pm
Posted on 8/22/25 at 5:28 pm to prattalumni
quote:
These were still observed until roughly 300CE when catholicism began to have more and more anti-messianic sentiment.
Yeah, this is the thing that blows the supposed first church out of the water. The early churches held on to lots of Jewish traditions. Especially "The Lord our God is one Lord". Then the Romans stepped in at Nicaea had the head of the Roman GOVERNMENT choose sides
Which called for many to be expelled, that had been practiced the original beliefs since the beginning. The Catholics then added their own books and teachings to steer away from the canon. Its such a perverse doctrine. And its amplified by its embrace of idolatry, sexual crimes, and lies about Christian history
Posted on 8/22/25 at 5:35 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:
You’re assuming that they actually wrote those gospels and epistles.
I'm aware of no evidence that they didn't and lots of evidence that they did.
Posted on 8/23/25 at 4:15 pm to prattalumni
quote:
The first entury believers still observed all these things. These verses directly correlate to the added law by the pharisees and not God's Divine Torah. (Unril heaven and earth pass away, Not one jot or tittle shall pass from the law until all is fulfilled, last I checked heaven and earth are not gone, therefore the Torah still stands).
Foo teaches others that the Torah is no longer applicable. He will not be more righteous than the Pharisees because he rejects Jesus’ own teachings in favor of a “faith alone” doctrine rather than “doing the works commanded by Jesus” and so he will be least in His kingdom and may even be thrown into the lake of fire on judgement day if he doesn’t repent and follow Jesus.
Posted on 8/24/25 at 6:36 am to Harald Ekernson
quote:
he rejects Jesus’ own teachings in favor of a “faith alone”
I would put it a little differently. I say faith counts for righteousness but that faith MUST produce good works, otherwise we could all just do what we want and claim salvation anyway. "Not everyone who says unto me Lord, Lord shall enter the kingdom, but only those who DO the will of my Father." Also John 14:15 "If you love me, keep my commandments (Torah)". I don't know how I tried to get around these verses in the traditional church.
Posted on 8/24/25 at 7:06 am to Goforit
quote:
you don't think Israel is important in the rule of the kingdoms of the earth you are stupid. God chose Israel to be the head of all nations
Even if you believe this is true the modern day govt of Israel =/= the Old Testament Israel.
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