re: Did you attend Church today?

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So how is one that is not catholic saved?

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“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart… may achieve eternal salvation.”

It includes people who:
1. Never encountered the Gospel
2. Were never properly taught it
3. Were not culpable for not entering the Church

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“Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart… may achieve eternal salvation.”

It includes people who:
1. Never encountered the Gospel
2. Were never properly taught it
3. Were not culpable for not entering the Church

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So if I'm Catholic I have to do all the church requires plus have faith but if I'm not Catholic I have a different path? Does this really make sense to you?

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So how is one that is not catholic saved?

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For many early Christians Jesus had come to pass to them the secret knowledge of how to escape the world created by the Jewish god “Yaldabaoth” (bastardization of “Yahweh Sabaoth”). Key to their success was to memorize the names of angels to pass through cosmic gates on their way to meet the benevolent god in the Pleroma.

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“Faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.” James 2:17
“Even the demons believe—and shudder!” James 2:19
“For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.” James 2:26

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So you believe in faith plus works?

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So you believe in faith plus works?

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Nope. See previous replies to FMC.

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while I believe the Bible teaches that it is faith alone that is the basis for justification

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It's quite illogical to reach that conclusion based on Scripture, when nothing that Jesus Christ Himself said supports that conclusion. In fact, when asked about what it takes to get to Heaven, "Faith Alone" is the opposite of Jesus's answer.

So, the Bible teaches us directly and right on target that, when Jesus Himself is asked "How do I get to Heaven?", Jesus's answer is just about the opposite of "Faith Alone", and yet, somehow, some people believe that the Bible clearly teaches that Faith Alone is how to get to Heaven !!



Now, go right ahead and Foo-splain to us all how what is clearly right there in the Bible does not actually mean what the clear words actually mean.

Late to the party.

Calvinists/Protestants Vs Catholics?

Awesome.

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Because there has to be a distinction between faith that saves and faith that doesn't save. Remember, you already showed you understand the concept of faith that doesn't save. He's describing the faith that does save.

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I understand there is a distinction, and I provided what I believe the biblical distinction is: a saving faith produces good works, while a non-saving faith (the "faith" of demons) does not.

Works are an evidence of a living, saving faith. It seems like Rome teaches something beyond works evidencing saving faith, but doing more than that, namely adding to justification.

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Again, the demons have faith in Christ. The faith that saves is shown through how we live.

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Exactly, and I agree entirely with this statement right here. That's what I've been saying consistently.

What I am having trouble with is this language doesn't seem to cover all that works do from a Catholic perspective. What you just said here sounds like works are merely an evidence of saving faith, which is what I've said several times now, and which the priest in the video does not seem to affirm. Good works are not "merely" a sign or evidence flowing from saving faith.

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He said "not merely" a sign, it comes out of our relationship with God. He isn't rejecting that it's a sign, he's saying it's even better than a sign.

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That's my point. I'm saying that good works do not merit anything, but that they are signs of God's gracious work of regeneration and justification in us, that He has saved us by His grace.

The difference is important here: grace is demerited favor by God. Now, I say "demerited" instead of "unmerited", because we aren't neutral and just haven't earned anything from God, but we actively sin against Him and deserve His wrath. That's why grace is a gift from God rather than a wage, because we not only haven't done anything (nor can we) to earn grace, but we continually sin, which deserves His wrath.

Therefore, if we are saved by grace, then we are not saved by works. That means our works do not merit or earn anything towards our salvation, otherwise, again, we would be contributing to our own justification (salvation). We can't contribute anything but our need for it, and Christ has paid the infinite sin-debt that we owe, and we cannot do enough good works to cover that gap.

Where does that leave works? If Christ has paid the sin-debt we owe to God and our good works don't contribute anything to our justification, then all they can do is show that we have received God's saving grace as an evidence; they can't earn or merit justification.

What the priest is saying when he says good works are not "merely" an evidence, is that they do something for our justification beyond what grace does. What else is that but merit and contribution towards justification? He goes on to talk about the guitar analogy, where it's a useless gift if we don't put in the effort. That's not how salvation works, though. Heaven is not useless if we do not add good works. Heaven is perfect communion with God for eternity in spite of our sin, because Jesus paid that debt for us. That's why the gospel is "good news".

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Please listen to understand and not listen for words to formulate an argument against.

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I gave him my full attention and only stopped the video at moments that didn't sound right to me, and those moments were what I gave commentary on. I wasn't listening only to pick it apart, but I was listening and comparing his words to what I've read and heard from Catholics (including the Catechism) in the past.

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You believe people can go to hell. I know this because you've said it before. If we've all been given the gift of grace, the ones going to heaven will be those who accept the gift. The gift is the justification. We can still choose not to accept it. That is not "good works" being the justification.

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I don't agree that everyone has been given the grace of justification (saving grace). I would say the Bible makes more of a distinction between common grace (even the wicked getting good things in this life, like rain and sunshine), and saving grace (the gift of faith and the justification that comes with it). All men have common grace, but only the elect have saving grace. And, since the elect receive saving grace because of God's choice, they cannot lose it, because He preserves His chosen until the end. Those same elect Christians will therefore evidence such saving grace and faith through good works, because the same God who chooses, saves, and sanctifies.

So again I have to say, that we have a fundamentally different view of justification and good works, beyond the language used, because we mean different things by our words.

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It's quite illogical to reach that conclusion based on Scripture

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That's precisely how that conclusion is arrived at. We don't go off of tradition of men like Rome does, so we search the Scriptures and find that justification is by faith, not by works. Our salvation is merited by Christ alone, not by what we do.

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when nothing that Jesus Christ Himself said supports that conclusion. In fact, when asked about what it takes to get to Heaven, "Faith Alone" is the opposite of Jesus's answer.

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Not at all. He says over and over again to "believe" in Him for eternal life.

I think you need to take another look at the story of the rich young man/ruler whom Jesus was responding to. Jesus wasn't saying that the man could have earned salvation by obeying the law, because he couldn't obey the law at all. In fact, Jesus in the sermon on the Mount explained that sin goes beyond the letter of the law, and I'm sure the man sinned as we all do. That was proven in Jesus' command to sell all that he had and follow Him, because Jesus knew that the man wasn't interested in following him, but keeping his possessions.

No, Jesus said over and over again that believing in Him is what would save, and if there were more requirements (like obedience to the law), then Jesus told people incomplete information for obtaining eternal life.

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So, the Bible teaches us directly and right on target that, when Jesus Himself is asked "How do I get to Heaven?", Jesus's answer is just about the opposite of "Faith Alone", and yet, somehow, some people believe that the Bible clearly teaches that Faith Alone is how to get to Heaven !!

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As I said, Jesus tailored His response to the person He was talking to. The man was not interested in following Jesus by faith, but wanted to hear what he could do to get life apart from Jesus. Jesus pin-pointed the man's idolatry by going back to the first commandment. The man worshipped his possessions instead of Jesus.

In my estimation, this story actually highlights the futility of trying to earn salvation by works.

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Now, go right ahead and Foo-splain to us all how what is clearly right there in the Bible does not actually mean what the clear words actually mean.

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Done

Catholics attempt to pigeonhole their entire doctrine into the 2nd chapter of James while ignoring the rest of the new testament. We are saved by faith while our works are profitable to men and glorify our father in heaven. This is clearly what James it talking about. Getting these 2 mixed up leads to the majority of the confusion on this topic.