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re: Did anyone catch the Jon Stewart and Oreilly debate on white privilege?
Posted on 10/20/14 at 11:53 am to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 10/20/14 at 11:53 am to SlowFlowPro
I'm not going to use the term white privilege or anything, but what I will say is there are times I am more cognizant of what I should or shouldn't do, because I'm black, that others of different race may not have to think about. Now I've lived an awesome 25 years, so I'm not one of those over-dramatic types that says shite like "not a day goes by where I don't feel the heavy burdens of being black and the shackles that places on me each and every day blah blah blah." But let me give a quick, light-hearted example:
I've had my ears pieced since I was 18. My parents weren't fans but after nagging they eventually were like "its your choice." Now I used to where them all the time in undergrad, but it's been years since I've last worn them because I'm just not sure I can afford to anymore. I remember when I was doing research at Stanford SOM after my junior year, the PI in my lab (an Indian guy who I was very close to and I still consider him a mentor to this day) told me strait up to ditch the earrings because having earrings, especially when your black, could be a major turn off in certain professional settings. Now I wasn't offended by what he said at all; I was thankful he said it. Up until that point, I thought the earrings were irrelevant because once you met me and saw the work I've done they wouldn't matter, but that's not reality. Hell there are people on this board who've insinuated strait up that I'm probably a product of affirmative action; if they saw me with earrings they would probably think I sold crack to pay tuition
but for real, you only get one chance to make a good first impression.
Now fast forward to medcschool, and I have two male classmates (one white, one indian) who where their earrings religiously. Sometimes I wonder if they get judged like I would if I wore my earrings to a research meeting? Does it matter as much for them? Do they even think about it? Maybe this is all in my head and I'm just being too cautious/paranoid. IDK, but I do know it's not worth taking the risk *glances fondly at his cubic zirconia square studs in his drawer, before closing the drawer dramatically*
I know I know, csb. Just my 2 cents.
I've had my ears pieced since I was 18. My parents weren't fans but after nagging they eventually were like "its your choice." Now I used to where them all the time in undergrad, but it's been years since I've last worn them because I'm just not sure I can afford to anymore. I remember when I was doing research at Stanford SOM after my junior year, the PI in my lab (an Indian guy who I was very close to and I still consider him a mentor to this day) told me strait up to ditch the earrings because having earrings, especially when your black, could be a major turn off in certain professional settings. Now I wasn't offended by what he said at all; I was thankful he said it. Up until that point, I thought the earrings were irrelevant because once you met me and saw the work I've done they wouldn't matter, but that's not reality. Hell there are people on this board who've insinuated strait up that I'm probably a product of affirmative action; if they saw me with earrings they would probably think I sold crack to pay tuition
but for real, you only get one chance to make a good first impression. Now fast forward to medcschool, and I have two male classmates (one white, one indian) who where their earrings religiously. Sometimes I wonder if they get judged like I would if I wore my earrings to a research meeting? Does it matter as much for them? Do they even think about it? Maybe this is all in my head and I'm just being too cautious/paranoid. IDK, but I do know it's not worth taking the risk *glances fondly at his cubic zirconia square studs in his drawer, before closing the drawer dramatically*
I know I know, csb. Just my 2 cents.
5
Posted on 10/20/14 at 11:54 am to Hawkeye95
quote:
why does it exist
Human nature
quote:
what we should do about it.
Nothing
Posted on 10/20/14 at 11:55 am to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
Now fast forward to medcschool, and I have two male classmates (one white, one indian) who where their earrings religiously. Sometimes I wonder if they get judged like I would if I wore my earrings to a research meeting?
Speaking personally, I judge the shite out of any male wearing earring regardless of race. Honestly, I probably judge white guys worse than anyone.
This post was edited on 10/20/14 at 11:56 am
Posted on 10/20/14 at 11:56 am to Antonio Moss
quote:
Human nature
i think its more complex than that. I think we have some momemntum in society that needs to be fixed. The number one thing is we need to get fathers, and especially black fathers, to marry the baby mommas and raise the kids.
quote:
Nothing
I don't see this as an option, but I think there are some nudges we could do tax policy wise to have more marriages for low income folks.
Posted on 10/20/14 at 11:58 am to SlowFlowPro
quote:You're writing a whole lot of words to avoid answering the original question of whether that study proves that whites are privileged when buying cars.
but they didn't buy the cars, and in reality, nobody forces anyone to buy a car.
this is a free market exchange without force on either end. i'm not claiming to have a definitive explanation, but let's assume that i'm correct and that market research shows any group will pay more for a car. why would the dealer NOT offer it at a higher price to that group?
if the group who would pay more shifts and stops, the dealers will shift and lower prices. that's how markets work
it's a big stretch to call that racism, when it's just responding to a market
now, on the other hand, we can assume that these dealers are racist. that means that they choose to leave profits on the table when white males (the biggest buying population) buy a car.
free markets destroy racism, and your "car dealer" example is a major stretch b/c the risk seem far too risky for any supposed benefit
so if it's a stretch, i look to other explanations
let's assume THE most racist policy. even then, that car dealership will suffer in the market and be forced out by non-racist dealerships.
Most obviously, your two hypotheticals are inconsistent. If free markets destroyed racism, then "market research" shouldn't matter. Because unless they're all colluding on matching that market research exactly, they still have an obvious incentive to undercut their competitors for women and minorities. Especially the minority owned dealerships. After all, if the margins on the sales to white men were still tolerable, they should be jumping at the chance to grab the business of women and minorities.
Yet this clearly isn't what happened. So either free markets don't destroy racism (I point out here that white privilege is a substantially milder phenomenon), or the market research you're hypothesizing does exist, but with extreme collusion among the 150 car dealerships to match it.
This post was edited on 10/20/14 at 11:59 am
Posted on 10/20/14 at 11:58 am to Hawkeye95
quote:
i think its more complex than that
Nope. Preference for the majority has existed since the beginning of time. It's why foreigners either assimilate to the majority culture or become outcasts.
You think it's bad here? Go live in Japan for a while.
Posted on 10/20/14 at 12:01 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
The number one thing is we need to get fathers, and especially black fathers, to marry the baby mommas and raise the kids.
Agree
quote:
I don't see this as an option, but I think there are some nudges we could do tax policy wise to have more marriages for low income folks.
You'd maybe see more marriages but they would probably only be marriages in the legal sense. Penalizing single people isn't really the way to go.
Posted on 10/20/14 at 12:02 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
I think the more interesting questions are - why does it exist
this entirely depends on how you define "white privilege"
Posted on 10/20/14 at 12:07 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
Now fast forward to medcschool, and I have two male classmates (one white, one indian) who where their earrings religiously. Sometimes I wonder if they get judged like I would if I wore my earrings to a research meeting?
make a thread on the OT about it. earrings are OT trashy...so to answer your question: yes
Posted on 10/20/14 at 12:09 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
I think we have some momemntum in society that needs to be fixed. The number one thing is we need to get fathers, and especially black fathers, to marry the baby mommas and raise the kids.
is that a part of white privilege?
that sounds more like, and i'm using AM's words, "black burden"
if a group has privilege, only that group can combat its own privilege, in my eyes
Posted on 10/20/14 at 12:12 pm to NC_Tigah
Posted on 10/20/14 at 12:15 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
if a group has privilege, only that group can combat its own privilege, in my eyes
This seems to be the ultimate goal. We've all been told that we have to accept the premise but no one will say what the next step is. Surely, the WP doctrine isn't completely about attaining a higher state of consciousness.
Posted on 10/20/14 at 12:19 pm to onmymedicalgrind
quote:
Now fast forward to medcschool, and I have two male classmates (one white, one indian) who where their earrings religiously. Sometimes I wonder if they get judged like I would if I wore my earrings to a research meeting? Does it matter as much for them? Do they even think about it? Maybe this is all in my head and I'm just being too cautious/paranoid. IDK, but I do know it's not worth taking the risk *glances fondly at his cubic zirconia square studs in his drawer, before closing the drawer dramatically*
There is a black dude and a white dude in the year below me who both wear earrings into class, in defiance of our dress code. I don't care about either one of them wearing their earrings.
edit: Actually, that's not 100% accurate. I'm annoyed they get to break the dresscode and I can't wear jeans. frickers.
This post was edited on 10/20/14 at 12:22 pm
Posted on 10/20/14 at 12:38 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
is that a part of white privilege?
i think that is an interesting conversation to have, and in some ways there is a bit of privilege if you have two parents when everyone else doesn't have a father around.
quote:
that sounds more like, and i'm using AM's words, "black burden"
i think there is some of that going on too. And then there is the phrasing comes into play. Is it black burden or is white privilege for not having that burden?
I really think that feminists and social justice proponents do a poor job selling the concept of privilege. I think a better way to say it would be something around "blessing" as this is what most people would see it as. I am "blessed" b.c i am not retarded. I do not get able privilege.
Posted on 10/20/14 at 12:39 pm to onmymedicalgrind
I feel as though having earrings period would have negatively affected you in professional settings regardless of skin color. I don't doubt though that some people may have a stronger negative perception because of your skin color. However, I think in this day and age that would be due to a reaction to popular black culture which shuns academia and glorifies less than admirable behavior as opposed to outright dislike for a person purely because of their skin. In this situation I like to point to the racial dynamics in the united kingdom. There, people are far more tolerant of blacks (and vice versa) despite a shared past of slavery because for the most part they integrated themselves in to British culture. To be Arab over there is a different story because it is their culture (not skin color that clashes) running against the grain. In America there is division between blacks and whites because we continue to divide each other not just by skin but by cultural identity. I'm proud of my Hispanic heritage but I don't try to separate myself or demand special treatment. I'm an American whose ancestors were Cuban. I am not a Cuban-american
This post was edited on 10/20/14 at 12:41 pm
Posted on 10/20/14 at 12:53 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
And then there is the phrasing comes into play
that's why i've been asking for precise definitions
quote:
Is it black burden or is white privilege for not having that burden?
it's pretty fricked up to create a negative phrasing for one group engaging in positive behavior more often...kind of a paradox
quote:
I really think that feminists and social justice proponents do a poor job selling the concept of privilege.
that's b/c they have to keep it nebulous for easy reference. a better sell would require more precision, and that hurts them
Posted on 10/20/14 at 1:15 pm to Hawkeye95
quote:
I really think that feminists and social justice proponents do a poor job selling the concept of privilege.
Hard to sell an abstract concept of something that doesn't exist in the first place.
White privilege can be summed up as "life isn't fair". Some people are born with advantages they did nothing to acquire.
Let's roll up our sleeves and get down to the real issues: thin privilege, beauty privilege, big breast privilege, dark skin (but not TOO dark) privilege, rich privilege, poor privilege, northern privilege, cis-privilege, and not-having-a-privilege privilege. FIX EVERYTHING!
This post was edited on 10/20/14 at 1:16 pm
Posted on 10/20/14 at 1:16 pm to DrunkerThanThou
Minorities and Ethnicities who tend to disregard their own culture and embrace the dominant culture can go father then most. This is the case in the US, the UK, and even Russia.
Posted on 10/20/14 at 3:20 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
make a thread on the OT about it. earrings are OT trashy...so to answer your question: yes
IDK SFP. I'm not saying people don't look at those other guys and say "those earrings are not a good look;" I'm sure they do. But that's not what I'm worried about. I'm worried about people seeing me and my earrings and, consciously or subconsciously, thinking about urban thugs and gangbanging. You really think an Indian with earrings has to worry about that same thing to the extent that I do? If so, we must live in different worlds.
Posted on 10/20/14 at 3:21 pm to onmymedicalgrind
i'm a bad person to use b/c i grew up around black people and trashy white people, so IDGAF
but
i think you'd be surprised at how scared cornball white people get around white trash
but
i think you'd be surprised at how scared cornball white people get around white trash
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