Started By
Message

re: DC Circuit Rules against Trump re House Request for Tax Records

Posted on 10/11/19 at 1:41 pm to
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 1:41 pm to
quote:

Hank, are you not thinking of the implications of Congress randomly and for no reason being able to just go around subpoenaing your attorney, or your bank, or your accountant, or your doctor? What reasonable basis does Congress have justifying looking at trump’s tax returns.

this is a horrible, idiotic, fascist idea.
As you know, it is not extraordinarily unusual in a court proceeding for a party to be requested to produce documents arguably covered by one privilege or another. You assert the privilege, and the court examines the documents in camera to determine whether the privilege is applicable. if the privilege is applicable, you get the documents back. Otherwise, the documents are almost uniformly subject to some significant confidentiality requirements.

In this case, the Committee is supposed to perform a function analogous to the court performing an in camera review, because the Committee is prohibited from disseminating the information. It is not perfect. As I have stated above, I think that the penalties for violating that confidentiality should be significantly more severe.

But, again, you and these other folks are arguing what the law SHOULD BE, while I am addressing the question of what the law actually IS. I do not usually expect you to fall into that trap.
This post was edited on 10/11/19 at 1:52 pm
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 1:43 pm to
JJDoc, those were simply examples of situations in which the documents in question are subject to disclosure, presented in the context of a large number of posters asserting that no one should ever have access to income tax returns.

It was by no means all inclusive.
Posted by Jjdoc
Cali
Member since Mar 2016
55430 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 1:55 pm to
Again.. you were asked about law... not what we want the law to be.


You have yet to:

- give the law(s)

- gave examples that DO NOT remotely pertain to this, and were 100% wrong in that the whole tax return be turned over even in those examples.

We still await your wisdom...................
Posted by roadGator
Member since Feb 2009
155031 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:00 pm to
quote:

the purpose of the investigation.


Is to get Trump.

I hope the spineless Rs do all this same shite to the gutless progs.
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:01 pm to
quote:

Again.. you were asked about law
And I have explained repeatedly that there is no one statute which answers your question.

To the contrary, it took a significant number of pages of analysis to outline the law applicable to this request. That analysis is found in the court opinion. I have given a very abbreviated, shorthand explanation of that law several times in this thread. If you need more detail, read the opinion.

As to the discoverability of tax returns in general, you are (in a very small context) correct in a very limited way, in observing that every single scenario in which such returns are subject to disclosure will have some characteristic which distinguishes it from the Trump subpoena.
Posted by SSpaniel
Germantown
Member since Feb 2013
29658 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:03 pm to
quote:


“Let’s get rid of Orange Man first, and then later on, we can address the possible doors to abuse this ruling opens.”

Then of course, nothing is ever done to close them. When it comes to government, once certain genies are out of the bottle, there’s no putting them back.


This. It'll be like... "Lookie what we can do now!"
Posted by Janky
Team Primo
Member since Jun 2011
35957 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:06 pm to
quote:

the financial disclosure forms that the President must produce every year in office. What alerted the committee to potential inaccuracies was the Stormy Daniels hush money payment Trump made to Cohen.


Surely they don't need his entire return for this made up excuse.
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:09 pm to
quote:

Surely they don't need his entire return for this made up excuse.
Probably not, but that is just not the legal standard for such subpoenas. From the opinion:
quote:

All told, from Congress’s centuries-long experience issuing legislative subpoenas, and the courts’ (somewhat less frequent) experience reviewing them, a few principles emerge—principles that control our resolution of this case.

As an initial matter, “whether [a] committee [is] authorized [to] exact the information” it has subpoenaed “must first be settled before . . . consider[ing] whether Congress had the [constitutional] power to confer upon the committee the authority which it claim[s].” Rumely, 345 U.S. at 42–43. In other words, it matters not whether the Constitution would give Congress authority to issue a subpoena if Congress has given the issuing committee no such authority.

That said, once a committee has been delegated “[t]he power of the Congress to conduct investigations,” that constitutional authority “is broad.” Watkins, 354 U.S. at 187; accord Eastland, 421 U.S. at 504 n.15 (“[T]he power to investigate is necessarily broad.”); Barenblatt, 360 U.S. at 111 (describing Congress’s investigative power as “broad”); Quinn v. United States, 349 U.S. 155, 160 (1955) (same);McGrain, 273 U.S. at 173–74 (same). “It encompasses inquiries concerning the administration of existing laws as well as proposed or possibly needed statutes,” “[i]t includes surveys of defects in our social, economic or political system for the purpose of enabling the Congress to remedy them,” and “[i]t comprehends probes into departments of the Federal Government to expose corruption, inefficiency or waste.” Watkins, 354 U.S. at 187. In short, “[a] legislative inquiry may be as broad, as searching, and as exhaustive as is necessary to make effective the constitutional powers of Congress.” Townsend v. United States, 95 F.2d 352, 361 (D.C. Cir. 1938). Expansive as it is, however, Congress’s subpoena power is subject to several key constraints.

First, because “the power of Congress . . . to investigate” is “co-extensive with [its] power to legislate,” Quinn, 349 U.S. at 160, Congress may in exercising its investigative power neither usurp the other branches’ constitutionally designated functions nor violate individuals’ constitutionally protected rights. Congress may not conduct itself as “a law enforcement or trial agency,” as “[t]hese are functions of the executive and judicial departments.” Watkins, 354 U.S. at 187. And Congress lacks any “general power to expose where the predominant result can only be an invasion of the private rights of individuals.” Id. at 200.

Next, precisely because “[t]he scope of [Congress’s] power of inquiry . . . is as penetrating and far-reaching as the potential power to enact and appropriate under the Constitution,” Barenblatt, 360 U.S. at 111, Congress may investigate only those topics on which it could legislate, see Quinn, 349 U.S. at 161 (stating that Congress’s “power to investigate” does not “extend to an area in which Congress is forbidden to legislate”). If no constitutional statute may be enacted on a subject matter, then that subject is off-limits to congressional investigators.

And finally, congressional committees may subpoena only information “calculated to” “materially aid[]” their investigations. McGrain, 273 U.S. at 177. Even a valid legislative purpose cannot justify a subpoena demanding irrelevant material.
With these principles in mind, we proceed to the particulars of this case. The Trump Plaintiffs dispute both the Committee’s authority from the House to issue the subpoena and the House’s authority under the Constitution to confer the same. For reasons that shall become clear later, we address these questions in reverse order.
This post was edited on 10/11/19 at 2:13 pm
Posted by Janky
Team Primo
Member since Jun 2011
35957 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:11 pm to
It is good enough for the IRS.
Posted by Mickey Goldmill
Baton Rouge
Member since Mar 2010
26376 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:11 pm to
quote:

Surely they don't need his entire return for this made up excuse.



Well the argument they are making is related to whether they need to change the current rules since this payment/inaccuracy went unnoticed until Cohen's testimony. I believe they are basically arguing that depending on what was put in the returns, their reporting requirements may need to be changed so that something like this would be produced.
Posted by McChowder
Hammond
Member since Dec 2006
5727 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:12 pm to
quote:

I see the identity of the recipient of the subpoena is being highly relevant to the question of whether said recipient will actually comply with the eventual final court order. Do you disagree?

It's called a distinction without a deference.

For example: I want to see AggieHank86's medical records. What difference does it make if I subpoena you or your doctor? The service provider has a sworn duty to protect your privacy by law.

Ultimately if this goes to the highest court either party would be compelled to comply with the decision so what is your point?

Are you having a fanboy fantasy that the service provider somehow isn't going to hold off during the appeals process? LoL k
Posted by Janky
Team Primo
Member since Jun 2011
35957 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:16 pm to
Where would a payment show up in a tax return? Did he try to deduct the payment. I didn't really follow the bimbo conspiracy.
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:19 pm to
quote:

It's called a distinction without a deference.

For example: I want to see AggieHank86's medical records. What difference does it make if I subpoena you or your doctor? The service provider has a sworn duty to protect your privacy by law.

Ultimately if this goes to the highest court either party would be compelled to comply with the decision so what is your point?

Are you having a fanboy fantasy that the service provider somehow isn't going to hold off during the appeals process? LoL k
I cannot tell whether you actually do not understand or whether you are feigning ignorance.

OF COURSE a professional is going to await the appellate process. I SAID as much. The question is “What happens when the ruling becomes final.”. (The word “final” is found in my post that you referenced.)

The professional will almost certainly produce the documents in that instance. The litigant might well have an “unfortunate fireplace accident” involving those records. As such, a competent investigator will ALWAYS seek them from an outside source, if there is any chance to find them there.
This post was edited on 10/11/19 at 2:20 pm
Posted by SSpaniel
Germantown
Member since Feb 2013
29658 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:20 pm to
quote:

I want to see AggieHank86's medical records. What difference does it make if I subpoena you or your doctor? The service provider has a sworn duty to protect your privacy by law.



There is doctor-patient confidentiality and attorney-client privilege, but there is no accountant-client privilege, is there?
Posted by Janky
Team Primo
Member since Jun 2011
35957 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:21 pm to
quote:

Well the argument they are making is related to whether they need to change the current rules since this payment/inaccuracy went unnoticed until Cohen's testimony. I believe they are basically arguing that depending on what was put in the returns, their reporting requirements may need to be changed so that something like this would be produced.




BTW, that sounds like total and complete bullshite.
Posted by SEC2789
Member since Jun 2013
234 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:22 pm to
So this maybe a stupid question.....but I don't remember the Clinton's, Obama's, or Bush's ever having to release their tax returns... I am wrong? In all honesty not trying to be sarcastic.
Posted by Dday63
Member since Sep 2014
2393 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:23 pm to
quote:

The professional will almost certainly produce the documents in that instance.


The professional will also most likely have a full and complete copy of the records in question, rather than the litigant producing only what they can locate.
Posted by Knight of Old
New Hampshire
Member since Jul 2007
12674 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:25 pm to
Don't even care...
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:28 pm to
quote:

So this maybe a stupid question.....but I don't remember the Clinton's, Obama's, or Bush's ever having to release their tax returns... I am wrong? In all honesty not trying to be sarcastic.
I do not recall any similar investigation which would have required them to produce tax returns.

But I do seem to recall that ALL of them voluntarily disclosed their tax returns as part of the campaign process. Every significant Presidential candidate since Ford has done so, likely in response to perceived Nixon corruption.

The Ethics in Government Act REQUIRED a financial disclosure, but every candidate other than Trump for 50 years has VOLUNTARILY also disclosed tax returns .. to show us how honest they are.
This post was edited on 10/11/19 at 2:41 pm
Posted by AggieHank86
Texas
Member since Sep 2013
44345 posts
Posted on 10/11/19 at 2:29 pm to
quote:

The professional will also most likely have a full and complete copy of the records in question, rather than the litigant producing only what they can locate.
Correct
first pageprev pagePage 7 of 9Next pagelast page

Back to top
logoFollow TigerDroppings for LSU Football News
Follow us on X, Facebook and Instagram to get the latest updates on LSU Football and Recruiting.

FacebookXInstagram