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re: Can any decent attorney (not AggieHank or SFP) give opinion on autopen
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:10 pm to SlowFlowPro
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:10 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
The issue is the Constitution.
To argue the autopen signatures are invalid, you'll be arguing a Constitutional violation, which will be difficult when there is a set remedy in the document for such an issue (the 25th Amendment
You’ve made a huge leap in getting to the 25th. Biden doesn’t have to be incompetent to suggest that someone else acting and operating as the President is not binding.
And of course, when it is being hidden by those who presumably have gained this unconstitutional power, the 25th may not have been a viable remedy.
1
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:10 pm to udtiger
quote:
Of course, the counter argument is that in this instance, it's is not a question of Biden's competency, but whether these were HIS actions at all?
The irony is that Biden could confirm it via testimony but then they'd move to attack his testimony due to his incompetency.
This theory requires an allegation that Biden was so incompetent he lacked any lucidity in everyday life, and that's a stretch.
I think it's pretty clear they were governing by committee but I don't think he was unaware of what was going on.
Like on Casino when they show Kevin Pollack doing the signings.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:10 pm to Zgeo
quote:
If you can prove Joe did not know he signed or did not delegate the use of auto pen then they are null and void.
This would have been my question if there was ever a chance for anyone in government to care enough to challenge any of these. I think the biggest argument has been the change in the signatures, but if autopen does not allow the user to store a signature (or you have to reset it so often, on different devices...), then anyone who has ever signed multiple documents should know this is a non-issue. You give me 5 different things to sign, I'll probably have 3 different looks to my signature.
The follow-up question is, if it is determined that he delegated the use of his autopen, do they have confirmation of that in writing?
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:11 pm to monsterballads
quote:
the question is did biden actually e-sign all this paperwork (EO's/bills/pardons etc) or did some staffer somewhere do it?
Of course he didn't. This is where Mike Johnson's recounting of a meeting with Biden that took months to arrange and ended up in his being outnumbered by the committee of leadership that was running the "Biden" ship ganging up on his to play Keep Away with that doddering fool gets mighty interesting.
Once Johnson got some alone time with Joe, he raised the issue of prohibition against LNG exports from the Gulf and Biden had no idea what he was talking about. He said he authorized an impact study on banning it, but was convinced he hadn't signed off on the outright ban.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:11 pm to AnotherWin4LSU
quote:
I am not a lawyer and I do not pretend to be one on the internet. Is using an autopen or docusign documents just as valid as having something physically signed and notarized?
NAL -- I'd say yes -- It is legal. But there better be more than 'he told me to' documentation stating the person running the process of the autopen document signing was authorized.
There better be a chain of custody, paperwork trail. I'd love to see this investigated.
As another thread pointed out.... whoever controlled this process, controlled the White House for 4 years --- and that's when we should be concerned about 'not being elected'.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:12 pm to AnotherWin4LSU
Now that I think about it, my bank cashed my $1400 Covid stimulus check, which had Trump's autopen signature on it, which then sent the Dems in another rage du'jour cuz it was supposed to only have the Sec. of Treasury's signature on it.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:12 pm to moneyg
quote:
You’ve made a huge leap in getting to the 25th.
Well many people argue the problem was his incompetency.
quote:
Biden doesn’t have to be incompetent to suggest that someone else acting and operating as the President is not binding.
If you're arguing he was competent, then I don't see the issue, unless we're to believe a competent Biden let his admin sign stuff he didn't agree with and just let it slide
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:13 pm to udtiger
quote:
Autopen is not the same as Docusign
Docusign has all sorts of identity verifications and backstops. Autopen is available to whomever has access to the machine. Now, the autopen in the White House may be another matter and I would need to know the protocols.
That was my third and fourth questions. If Biden had to click a button and type a password, pin #, or use biometrics every time something was electronically signed then because we live in an electronic world. If one of his staffers or his wife were the ones clicking the button then that sounds like forgery to me. IMHO the DOJ should open an investigation immediately. Also electronic signature protocols for the signing of Presidential should be rewritten to require POTUS to use an electronic signature product that uses biometrics, time stamps it, and 3rd party authenticator app like doctors have to do when prescribing controlled substances.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:13 pm to AnotherWin4LSU
I think some people are missing the forest for the trees. It’s not just the auto pen. It’s the autopen plus the fact that he didn’t have the mental competency or the ability to know what he was f*cking signing in the first place that is the problem. Clearly this was just his lackeys signing anything they wanted to f*cking sign.
This post was edited on 3/10/25 at 2:21 pm
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:13 pm to captainFid
quote:
and that's when we should be concerned about 'not being elected'.
We were already concerned about 'not being elected'. He was installed anyway.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:14 pm to Zgeo
quote:
If you can prove Joe did not know he signed or did not delegate the use of auto pen then they are null and void. But good luck on that. Joe lied about everything else why would he suddenly become honest
A court could require him to undergo a mental fitness evaluation before accepting his testimony. In the end it will come to nothing but after what they put Trump through making Biden go through a little payback is justifiable.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:15 pm to MMauler
quote:You are correct.
I think some people are missing the forest for the trees. It’s not just the auto pen.
"Reeee. Biden used an autopen, while Trump manually signs things at public ceremonies."
That is a red herring.
The issues are three: (1) authorization, (2) capacity, and (3) the 25th.
This post was edited on 3/10/25 at 12:18 pm
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:15 pm to MMauler
quote:
I think some people are missing the forest for the trees. It’s not just the auto pen. It’s the auto prn plus the fact that he didn’t have the mental competency or the ability to know what he was f*cking signing in the first place that is the problem. Clearly this was just his lackirs signing anything they wanted to f*cking sign.
See, moneyg? This is why the 25th is going to end up being in the conversation.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:18 pm to laxtonto
I would think the first line of attack for invalidating any auto pen signatures would be to find any signatures that occurred when Biden was not in the WH. Then narrow down on those to determine where Biden was and if there is any records for him authorizing the use of auto pen.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:18 pm to SlowFlowPro
quote:
If you're arguing he was competent, then I don't see the issue, unless we're to believe a competent Biden let his admin sign stuff he didn't agree with and just let it slide
The status quo was this happening. Biden wasn’t even aware of the things signed. Testimony (will never happen) would assuredly show this. He couldn’t intelligently discuss many of the things signed.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:20 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
So, you really have two questions. First, did Biden authorize the use of the autopen or (instead) were others using it without his knowledge/consent? Second, even if he did purport to authorize its use, did he have the legal capacity to do so.
Lastly, even if you get past all those hurdles, you have the problem of the 25th Amendment, if you want to void any of these actions. There is a very strong argument that exercise of the 25th is the exclusive remedy here, and it was not exercised.
25th Amendment would not be an issue if Biden was not aware of his wife or staffers using autopen to sign stuff. If his chief of staff or anyone else said "Hey boss you want me to sign executive order X for you while you finish pooping because we are running late?" and Biden replied in the affirmative then it is not an issue because he gave his assent. If his chief of staff or anyone else just signed the stuff without asking then that would be a forgery issue, would it not? If so is a forged Presidential signature still valid?
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:21 pm to fwtex
quote:Another non-issue, IMO. He could authorize it on Day One, leave DC, and the staff might not run the machine until Day Three.
I would think the first line of attack for invalidating any auto pen signatures would be to find any signatures that occurred when Biden was not in the WH.
Again, three issues: (1) authorization, (2) capacity, and (3) the 25th.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:21 pm to AggieHank86
quote:
The issues are three: (1) authorization, (2) capacity, and (3) the 25th.
I find it interesting that in this discussion, the folks who swear nothing untoward was going on take the position that "Biden's cabinet never invoked the 25A against him, so everything bearing that e-signature should be seen as legit."
Like it's incumbent on a band of usurpers to self-report when the conductor of their gravy train is non compos mentis, drawing attention to what they would/did otherwise get away with unnoticed when they simply kept up the ruse.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:22 pm to fwtex
quote:
I would think the first line of attack for invalidating any auto pen signatures would be to find any signatures that occurred when Biden was not in the WH.
Ol' boy spent a whole lot of time on the beach in DE.
Posted on 3/10/25 at 12:22 pm to moneyg
quote:
The status quo was this happening. Biden wasn’t even aware of the things signed.
The allegations are he didn't know this due to...incompetency.
quote:
He couldn’t intelligently discuss many of the things signed.
And you're kind of making that argument here.
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