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Message
re: By the HAND OF GOD Watch this- goose bumps just watching
Posted on 7/18/24 at 12:11 am to Squirrelmeister
Posted on 7/18/24 at 12:11 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
In John, yes it seems Jesus was planning to let Lazarus die just so that he could resurrect him from the dead to convince his disciples to believe in him. It’s important to understand the writer of John is flat out rebuking the writer of Luke. In Luke, in the story of Lazarus, god rewards Lazarus in the afterlife for being a poor sickly beggar during his life. Jesus isn’t even in this story. It is Abraham who tells the rich man that if the rich man’s brothers don’t believe just from the writings of Moses and the prophets, that not even witnessing someone rise from the dead would convince them. The writer of John thinks that it ridiculous. Obviously seeing someone rise from the dead would convince people of some biblical truth. Hell, if it saw someone rise from the dead after being dead for 4 days rotting in a tomb, I would be a believer (and I’m an atheist)! The writer of John then writes a story to rebuke the story from Luke. Don’t take my word for it though, read both stories for yourself. It’ll only take 5 minutes.
I am glad to know your background as far as being atheist, and I’m also glad to hear you say you’d follow Christ if you saw that miracle. I pray the rapture happens tomorrow my friend. Your next 7 years will suck, but it’ll be worth it in the end.
Ok. On to the points you made.
I would like you to see the see difference in the two stories. Not in the way you described the stories. You were spot on. Even to the point of Jesus wanting to display His glory.
I’ll answer you how I understand and have researched that myself. I thought it contradicted itself most of my life.
Luke-when Jesus told the story of Lazarus, what you describe as a parable. I could be convinced either way of this to be honest. Maybe it was a true story, maybe it wasn’t. Jesus did tend to break down his parables, especially to His crew, but didn’t after this story or parable. There was also no reference of time to this story. So, it could have been an event from the time of the Old Testament. After Abraham and Moses of course. Jesus himself told this to the disciples and religious leaders.
John- was in Bethany when Jesus raised Lazarus from the Grave. The story was an eye witness by John The Disciple. Who I’m sure you know from the Bible.
So, to make all that short, two different Lazarus stories in the gospel. One told by Jesus in Luke. One witnessed by John in his gospel.
I appreciate your honest conversation regarding this. It’s not often I can come across an atheist that a normal conversation can be held.
But remember, I’m holding you to your word about becoming a Christ follower when you witness the rapture, or as you describe below:
quote:
rise from the dead after being dead for 4 days rotting in a tomb
I have a very simple YouTube channel. Very modest where I read the Bible every day at lunch. Called #LunchInTheWord
Never posted it in politic board, but it’s in the book board under “audio book”. Check it out one day at lunch. In the “live” section.
1
Posted on 7/18/24 at 12:58 am to Hateradedrink
Sounds like a similar biblical story?!?
Posted on 7/18/24 at 1:13 am to ronricks
quote:
God didn’t spare Donald Trump at the expense of an innocent husband and father.
My two pesos:
1) Had Trump been hit more directly, would that have shielded Corey Comperatore? Or, would Crooks have continued shooting killing him just the same?
2) In the Bible, Acts 12:18-19, God miraculously delivered Simon Peter from prison but in so doing it cost the innocent prison guards their lives.
Posted on 7/18/24 at 1:26 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
Hell, if it saw someone rise from the dead after being dead for 4 days rotting in a tomb, I would be a believer
Sure you would.
"‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’”
Posted on 7/18/24 at 6:35 am to AlwysATgr
quote:
Sure you would. "‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded even if someone rises from the dead.’
I don’t think you understood my point. Yes you quoted from Luke. John says just the exact opposite in his counter-story of Lazarus in which Jesus raised him from the dead to persuade his disciples. That’s a contradiction and not a coincidence. That’s “John” rebuking “Luke”.
Posted on 7/18/24 at 6:38 am to LSUmomma
quote:
Were there 2 shots that close to his head?!? And then the 3rd further off?
The video's full of shite. If it weren't the second shot would have hit trump in the hand/arm.
However, there is no denying that the head movement saved his life. So up to the point of the first shot, the vid is pretty spot on.
quote:
Hell, if it saw someone rise from the dead after being dead for 4 days rotting in a tomb, I would be a believer
Doubtful. You'd most likely say he was in a coma, or not really dead, etc. etc., and so on. You might THINK you'd be a believer, but...it's doubtful.
This post was edited on 7/18/24 at 6:44 am
Posted on 7/18/24 at 6:40 am to ronricks
quote:
God didn’t spare Donald Trump at the expense of an innocent husband and father. That’s fricking low iq ridiculous logic. It’s retarded.
You're retarded. Just another ignorant atheist with no understanding of the spiritual.
Posted on 7/18/24 at 6:54 am to TexasForever81
quote:
Luke-when Jesus told the story of Lazarus, what you describe as a parable. I could be convinced either way of this to be honest. Maybe it was a true story, maybe it wasn’t. Jesus did tend to break down his parables, especially to His crew, but didn’t after this story or parable. There was also no reference of time to this story.
I’m certain this is just a parable in Luke meant to be a teaching moment.
quote:
John- was in Bethany when Jesus raised Lazarus from the Grave. The story was an eye witness by John The Disciple. Who I’m sure you know from the Bible.
John the disciple (if such a person even existed) would have been a Galilean fisherman, and would have been most likely uneducated and would have most likely spoken Aramaic.
The gospel according to John (a naming convention assigned by Catholic Church after they had so many gospels floating around) is an anonymous work. There is no claim of authorship in the text. Neither does the text claim the author is an eyewitness. And it is written in perfect literary Koine Greek, which would be difficult for the “real” John who would have not spoken Greek and would have been illiterate. Acts 4:13 even describes John as illiterate.
quote:
So, to make all that short, two different Lazarus stories in the gospel. One told by Jesus in Luke. One witnessed by John in his gospel.
I think your original intuition that these stories were contradictory was correct. It is theoretically possible that they are two different and unrelated stories. But consider all the other times the gospel writers wrote stories to change and rebuke the stories of the others. Consider that in John, the theme is related but opposite (people can be persuaded by witnessing someone rising from the dead, while in the Luke story people cannot be persuaded by witnessing someone rising from the dead). I don’t think that is coincidence personally.
quote:
But remember, I’m holding you to your word about becoming a Christ follower when you witness the rapture, or as you describe below:
All Jesus would have to do is simply give a sign to all the Muslims and Hindus and Atheists and whatnot and they’d all believe. At the moment though, “God” if he exists chooses to make it look like he does not exist.
Posted on 7/18/24 at 7:13 am to baybeefeetz
quote:
Why wouldn’t god just strike the shooter down somehow before the shot.
Then it's just a crazy person who tried to kill Trump. Now look at what the talk is about. Just about everyone who talks about it says, "It's Divine intervention." To God Be The Glory.
Posted on 7/18/24 at 7:16 am to Jizzy08
But he's not dead...................................................is he.
Posted on 7/18/24 at 7:20 am to tenderfoot tigah
God's hand turned Trump's head?
Think he'd have felt that. Pretty sure he turned his own head.
Think he'd have felt that. Pretty sure he turned his own head.
Posted on 7/18/24 at 7:21 am to ronricks
I do find it amazing that the person killed in the crowd was actually a Christian.
Thar family is truly sorrowful but they 100% know he is in Heaven.
Thar family is truly sorrowful but they 100% know he is in Heaven.
Posted on 7/18/24 at 7:30 am to ronricks
quote:
God didn’t spare Donald Trump at the expense of an innocent husband and father. That’s fricking low iq ridiculous logic. It’s retarded.
I can’t conclusively, 100% say he did or he didn’t.
But I’ve worked ICU, ER, and Trauma for 28 years. Tons of 12, sometimes 16 hour shifts, dealing with situations that make you question humanity. Seen a lot of people die who seemingly shouldn’t have, seen a lot walk out who should’ve. Seen bad things happen to good people, seen absolute scum bags somehow avoid death.
Everyone’s religious faith is individual to themselves. Some have none, some have a degree of it, some have a lot, some go overboard with it
I don’t go to church, but I’ve seen enough to know there’s more going on than just random chance.
Believe what you want, that’s certainly your prerogative. Long time ago I felt different. But over the years and tens of thousands of hours of work I’ve learned to see things through a different lens.
Things happen for a reason. You and I may not understand that reason in the moment, but often the passage of time clarifies things.
Posted on 7/18/24 at 7:49 am to bleedsgarnet
quote:
Just about everyone who talks about it says, "It's Divine intervention."
Only the ignorant ones who think every positive break is divine intervention and every bad break is just misfortune.
quote:
Thar family is truly sorrowful but they 100% know he is in Heaven.
The 9/11 hijackers were 100% certain they were headed to Heaven too. Your “certainty” of a particular faith is an expression of your culture.
Unfortunately, it is still going to take society a while to be weaned off religion because people are taught from the cradle to be emotionally dependent on it.
People can easily see the factors that make other people adherents of other faiths but cannot acknowledge their own susceptibility to those same influences.
Posted on 7/18/24 at 8:00 am to mikeytig
quote:
Sounds like your angry at God.
I'm not. Through this scenario of an "innocent father's death" because of a greater struggle, God is telling us that there is going to be a lot of 'innocent' people (martyrs?) dying in horrific ways, in the coming monumental conflict. Suttle, sad and sobering truth, but it's still true. Don't have to get far into the Book of Revelation for Christian folks to ponder and accept this.
"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial that shall try (think perfect) your faith...". There are Spiritual things that one cannot just read and become, as it takes the 'fire' of real hurt to change one's Spiritual character. I don't like it - especially when thinking of the Grandchildren - but I accept it as being obviously true. With no anger at God/Truth.
Nice try. Get Jesus if you want to be comforted during the fire.
Posted on 7/18/24 at 8:16 am to bleedsgarnet
quote:
Thar family is truly sorrowful but they 100% know he is in Heaven.
Do they know with 100% certainty if they know the scriptures?
1 Thessalonians 4 is written by Paul to the church at Thessalonika to let them know that the dead will actually be transformed when Jesus comes (previously they all thought they’d still be alive when Jesus came to transform them into spiritual bodies and take them up).
quote:
13But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep, that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. 14For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.
In Mark 12, Jesus is talking to the Sadducees about a wife who had 7 husbands because the previous husband kept dying. Jesus’ language sounds like the resurrection of the dead is a thing that will happen in the future, not that dead individuals are already resurrected and transformed in heaven.
quote:
24Jesus said to them, “Is this not the reason you are wrong, because you know neither the Scriptures nor the power of God? 25For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels in heaven
Fun fact there is that Jesus is referring to 1 Enoch as the scripture.
And John is pretty clear right here:
quote:
13No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
If you are Catholic, you should recognize this part of the Nicene Creed:
quote:
I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church. I confess one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
I personally rejected Christianity not long after I figured out the tooth fairy and Santa Claus, but when I did believe in the Bible being divinely inspired, I always wondered how the church claimed people were in heaven when the creed we said at every mass said we were looking forward to the resurrection of the dead.
To be clear, the Catholic Church rejects the concept of “soul sleep”, but it has retained a vestige of that belief in the Nicene Creed. I was at a funeral of a family friend about a year ago now, and I asked the priest what he thought about where our buddy was, and he confided in me he believes his soul is at rest on earth in an unconscious state waiting to be resurrected.
Posted on 7/18/24 at 8:48 am to Squirrelmeister
The 'abstract'/Spiritual aspect of the existential relationship of a 'self' (limited version of "I Am" as opposed to the collective, self-aware Energy Reservoir "I Am") is virtually hard to comprehend as a 'limited self'. There is a paradoxical aspect that muddies the water in ways which we simply cannot intellectually comprehend but can only experience.
Two people can die, and the absorption of their molecular energy base and unique 'self' back into the Energy Reservoir would be the same to all living people who perceived such. Yet from the perspective to a person of Faith/God, said absorption could be 'seen/felt' as an expansion and union with God from their Spiritual pov, while that of an Unbeliever would indeed be eternal death. Two different people, experiencing the same thing, with a radical and polar difference in the feeling that is the essence of Being. Heaven and Hell in effect.
The lifting of our limitations is essentially the dying of our Self, as Jesus said that "he that seeks to save their self, will lose their self...", yet, Christians all believe that we will be resurrected after Self death, in a form wherein Selves remain characteristic of their unique beliefs, choices and the actions that flow from them. And rejoice in such. So when we reach that limitless Heaven, which version of our Self, will we experience? Will it be the Self of our present, past or future, as we will be independent of Time?
You are leaned, dedicated, meticulously thorough, honest and I believe, well-intentioned. To the degree that you exercise and hold 'Natural and/or Universal love' in your 'heart'...I cannot know, judge or does it matter for me. Your substantive arguments to those who take the leap of Faith/Belief ("He that seeks to know God, MUST FIRST BELIEVE") will be regarded as mis-guided, if not overly duplicitous and/or downright evil.
There is neat philosophical argument from William James, titled "The Will to Believe". He lays out a strong rational basis for Belief, with the premise being that there are some things which can never be real, unless or until one first believes and acts on them. I think both God and Jesus and Love, are in that category. And I think minus Jesus's "born of the Spirit" enlightening affect, via the Holy Spirit of Truth, one will not see the Spiritual side of Reality. Don't mean one cannot love, just that their love will be a hopeless version doomed to end. Just my opinion.
Gotta work. Good luck, SM.
Two people can die, and the absorption of their molecular energy base and unique 'self' back into the Energy Reservoir would be the same to all living people who perceived such. Yet from the perspective to a person of Faith/God, said absorption could be 'seen/felt' as an expansion and union with God from their Spiritual pov, while that of an Unbeliever would indeed be eternal death. Two different people, experiencing the same thing, with a radical and polar difference in the feeling that is the essence of Being. Heaven and Hell in effect.
The lifting of our limitations is essentially the dying of our Self, as Jesus said that "he that seeks to save their self, will lose their self...", yet, Christians all believe that we will be resurrected after Self death, in a form wherein Selves remain characteristic of their unique beliefs, choices and the actions that flow from them. And rejoice in such. So when we reach that limitless Heaven, which version of our Self, will we experience? Will it be the Self of our present, past or future, as we will be independent of Time?
You are leaned, dedicated, meticulously thorough, honest and I believe, well-intentioned. To the degree that you exercise and hold 'Natural and/or Universal love' in your 'heart'...I cannot know, judge or does it matter for me. Your substantive arguments to those who take the leap of Faith/Belief ("He that seeks to know God, MUST FIRST BELIEVE") will be regarded as mis-guided, if not overly duplicitous and/or downright evil.
There is neat philosophical argument from William James, titled "The Will to Believe". He lays out a strong rational basis for Belief, with the premise being that there are some things which can never be real, unless or until one first believes and acts on them. I think both God and Jesus and Love, are in that category. And I think minus Jesus's "born of the Spirit" enlightening affect, via the Holy Spirit of Truth, one will not see the Spiritual side of Reality. Don't mean one cannot love, just that their love will be a hopeless version doomed to end. Just my opinion.
Gotta work. Good luck, SM.
Posted on 7/18/24 at 9:34 am to Globetrotter747
Excellent post.
Posted on 7/18/24 at 10:12 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
I’m certain this is just a parable in Luke meant to be a teaching moment.
Like I said, I don’t have a strong emotional pull here either way. I just wanted to defend the position how Jesus told other parables.
quote:
John the disciple (if such a person even existed) would have been a Galilean fisherman, and would have been most likely uneducated and would have most likely spoken Aramaic. The gospel according to John (a naming convention assigned by Catholic Church after they had so many gospels floating around) is an anonymous work. There is no claim of authorship in the text. Neither does the text claim the author is an eyewitness. And it is written in perfect literary Koine Greek, which would be difficult for the “real” John who would have not spoken Greek and would have been illiterate. Acts 4:13 even describes John as illiterate.
While you’re right about the book of John not claiming specific John wrote. But, he referenced “the one Jesus loved”. That was John.
The book of John was put together after Jesus gave them the gift of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, he had all the wisdom, and a language barrier wouldn’t have existed.
I want to briefly touch on the verse you quoted from Acts. I’ll quote below:
quote:
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
Perceived unlearned and ignorant because of their views and beliefs don’t make fact. By using the opinion of the religious leaders in Israel, it would seem you’re defending the perceived notions they used in the Old Testament to debunk Jesus. I’m sure you think we are all pretty unlearned and ignorant because of what we say in defense of Christ. And that’s ok. I accept that. But it was talking about being trained in Jewish ways instead of boasting about Christ.
quote:
I think your original intuition that these stories were contradictory was correct. It is theoretically possible that they are two different and unrelated stories. But consider all the other times the gospel writers wrote stories to change and rebuke the stories of the others. Consider that in John, the theme is related but opposite (people can be persuaded by witnessing someone rising from the dead, while in the Luke story people cannot be persuaded by witnessing someone rising from the dead). I don’t think that is coincidence personally.
You have spent a lot of time in your life trying to debunk the Bible and the teachings of Jesus. I’m not criticizing you at all for that. Please don’t misunderstand me or take what I say out of context for being an a-hole. I would never do that. I just believe you try too hard to belittle, prove ignorant, or try to trip people up. Remember what Jesus said about faith and how blessed those would be who haven’t seen yet believed.
quote:
All Jesus would have to do is simply give a sign to all the Muslims and Hindus and Atheists and whatnot and they’d all believe. At the moment though, “God” if he exists chooses to make it look like he does not exist.
I know you have said if Jesus would just do a miracle today. If someone would rise.
Jesus came when man was very simple. I think the Hebrews only has about 4000 words at the time. The instructions are so simple.
Even though Luke was a doctor, his book was able to be read by the simplest or brightest of minds.
I don’t know if you’ll ever see that miracle to bring you to faith. I pray so hard you will. But, I also ask to not be so hard hearted that you miss it. Just like the Jews missed the opportunity to saved through Christ.
Again, I see how you respond to other posters here, and I appreciate your conversation. Even if you point out that John might have not even existed. I understand your hesitation or outright stubbornness. But you don’t have to made claims like that to me brother.
Posted on 7/18/24 at 10:34 am to Squirrelmeister
quote:
In John, yes it seems Jesus was planning to let Lazarus die just so that he could resurrect him from the dead to convince his disciples to believe in him. It’s important to understand the writer of John is flat out rebuking the writer of Luke. In Luke, in the story of Lazarus, god rewards Lazarus in the afterlife for being a poor sickly beggar during his life. Jesus isn’t even in this story. It is Abraham who tells the rich man that if the rich man’s brothers don’t believe just from the writings of Moses and the prophets, that not even witnessing someone rise from the dead would convince them. The writer of John thinks that it ridiculous. Obviously seeing someone rise from the dead would convince people of some biblical truth. Hell, if it saw someone rise from the dead after being dead for 4 days rotting in a tomb, I would be a believer (and I’m an atheist)! The writer of John then writes a story to rebuke the story from Luke. Don’t take my word for it though, read both stories for yourself. It’ll only take 5 minutes. One more thing. In the original story (the one in Luke) where God rewards Lazarus in the afterlife… think about Lazarus’ name. It is the Greek version of Eleazar. In Hebrew it means “El has helped” or “God has helped”. So “Luke” writes a parable of a guy helped by God in the afterlife and says the guy’s name is “God has helped”. It was a totally made up non historical story that “John” didn’t like so he used the same name of a character in a historical sounding story of a guy who never really existed to overwrite Luke’s version.
The Lazarus in Luke is not the same Lazarus in John 11…every time you open your mouth as if you understand scripture you continually prove how blind you are to TRUTH. I know you say you don’t care but for someone who says “he is an atheist and don’t believe in God,” you sure do spend a lot of time talking about him. If I didn’t believe in something or someone, I would care less about what others believe and wouldn’t waste a single moment of my precious time thinking or addressing it. But you man, you’re a different type of “atheist.” You love to try to talk about the God you say you don’t believe in…it’s hilarious. Truth is, deep down you know there is a Creator, there is a sovereign Painter to this masterpiece called life yet in your blind, incompetent, stone heart, you shake your fist at your Creator in rebellion. And the thing is, I can tell you’ve spent a little time studying the Word of God. But it’s obvious you have zero faith or discernment of TRUTH. One day, if you die in that condition, you’ll regret it for all eternity. The Gospel of Jesus Christ proclaims to repent and believe the Gospel. Repent of your unbelief and sin and trust in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. Otherwise, when you die, you will go to the eternal flames, you’ll go to where the worms don’t die and spend eternity in darkness and torment without any hope. I pray you don’t have to experience that but unfortunately, you seem so bent on hating your Creator that it seems that’s exactly your eternal future. The choice is yours though. Us Christians can’t save you. We are but messengers with the TRUTH of God’s plan of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ alone. Now, go ahead and bash the words I’ve spoken in support of your disbelief in the God you say doesn’t exist…
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