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“Bank Fraud” in loan applications
Posted on 8/20/18 at 9:41 am
Posted on 8/20/18 at 9:41 am
The Feds are looking to charge Cohen with bank fraud in relation to $20m in loans secured by his taxi medallions. The two banks involved in the loans are two that regularly deal with loans with people that own these medallions.
Manafort is also charged with lying on bank applications to secure loans.
Questions:
1) any loan i have applied for requires a ton of paperwork and data to present to the loan officers- W2s, retirement account balances, current bank statements. The then do credit checks and such.
- What exactly are the two guys accused of lying about on their apps to the bank which approved the loans?
-Are they actually in default of any of these loans that the bank approved on their behalf?
2) How is it the Feds business to look into the due diligence and file that the bank’s professionals and boards signed off on?
3) Wouldn’t it be more appropriate for the banks themselves to bring “fraudulent” claims against these two to the Feds attention, rather than vice versus?
Presumably the banks were fine with the applications otherwise they would not have signed off on the loans.
Are we to believe that the most powerful financial institutions in the world don’t exercise due diligence in approving large loans like they did for Cohen and Manafort ?
Manafort is also charged with lying on bank applications to secure loans.
Questions:
1) any loan i have applied for requires a ton of paperwork and data to present to the loan officers- W2s, retirement account balances, current bank statements. The then do credit checks and such.
- What exactly are the two guys accused of lying about on their apps to the bank which approved the loans?
-Are they actually in default of any of these loans that the bank approved on their behalf?
2) How is it the Feds business to look into the due diligence and file that the bank’s professionals and boards signed off on?
3) Wouldn’t it be more appropriate for the banks themselves to bring “fraudulent” claims against these two to the Feds attention, rather than vice versus?
Presumably the banks were fine with the applications otherwise they would not have signed off on the loans.
Are we to believe that the most powerful financial institutions in the world don’t exercise due diligence in approving large loans like they did for Cohen and Manafort ?
Posted on 8/20/18 at 9:44 am to Covingtontiger77
he's getting what he deserves
its been a pet peeve of mine since I picked up my law certifacatte over at boozie hall
its been a pet peeve of mine since I picked up my law certifacatte over at boozie hall
Posted on 8/20/18 at 9:46 am to Covingtontiger77
quote:In Manafort's case, it was a quid pro quo situation with the loan officer and submitting doctored documents with false information
Are we to believe that the most powerful financial institutions in the world don’t exercise due diligence in approving large loans like they did for Cohen and Manafort ?
But do you really have faith in banks after the complete financial meltdown and self dealing criminality of the 2000s?
This post was edited on 8/20/18 at 9:51 am
Posted on 8/20/18 at 9:46 am to Covingtontiger77
The bank can’t bring charges because the loans are current and there hasn’t been any missed payments or anything like that.
What I don’t understand is for there to be fraud there has to be a loss of some kind to the bank. In these cases there is no loss. The banks have each made money and the loans are in good standing.
What I don’t understand is for there to be fraud there has to be a loss of some kind to the bank. In these cases there is no loss. The banks have each made money and the loans are in good standing.
Posted on 8/20/18 at 9:49 am to Covingtontiger77
Last night's Times story implied that Cohen wasn't in default, but Manafort was according to the reporting on the trial. In the case of Manafort's $16 million from the Chicago Bank (25% of that small bank's lendable assets), several of the bank officials were given use immunity to testify in the trial. The bank's president, Steven Calk, was nowhere to be seen in the trial and may be on the hook legally, though (we'll see, but he sent on a list of Trump administration appointments he'd accept and Manafort and Gates forwarded it on to Kushner).
Posted on 8/20/18 at 9:50 am to UAinSOUTHAL
quote:
What I don’t understand is for there to be fraud there has to be a loss of some kind to the bank. In these cases there is no loss. The banks have each made money and the loans are in good standing.
This.
I am having a hard time understanding how a bank got fleeced in eithe if these instances to warrant fraud having been committed.
Posted on 8/20/18 at 9:51 am to JuiceTerry
quote:
In Manafort's case, it was a quid pro quo situation with the loan officer
What
quote:
But do you really have faith in banks after the complete financial meltdown and self dealing criminality of the 2000s?
What
Wow you are a really low iq person
Posted on 8/20/18 at 9:54 am to Covingtontiger77
quote:Manafort attempted to fleece them by submitting fraudulent documentation, allegedly
I am having a hard time understanding how a bank got fleeced in eithe if these instances to warrant fraud having been committed.
Posted on 8/20/18 at 9:55 am to Covingtontiger77
quote:
Federal investigators in New York are seeking to determine whether Mr. Cohen misrepresented the value of his assets to obtain the loans, which exceed $20 million.
How does one do this? Banks just don’t let you fill out a form free hand wheee you can put your net worth and take your word for it.
I would imagine that banks that are approving a loan of Cohen’s size are going to want a ton of back up data.
quote:
The bank loans under scrutiny, the total of which has not been previously reported, came from two financial institutions in the New York region that have catered to the taxi industry, Sterling National Bank and the Melrose Credit Union, according to business records and people with knowledge of the matter, including a banker who reviewed the transactions.
Ummm...it sounds like Sterling and Melrose Credit know what they are doing in approving loans tied to taxi medallions.
Failing NY Times
Posted on 8/20/18 at 9:55 am to Covingtontiger77
This post was edited on 8/20/18 at 9:56 am
Posted on 8/20/18 at 9:55 am to Covingtontiger77
You probably applied for a mortgage - the doc process is far more regulated and the bank can be charged with fraud for not verifying the info on the application.
A business loan plays by different rules - but since the bank is federally insured, the gov can charge you with fraud regarless of whether or not there is default.
It falls under “obtaining funds by misleading”.
A business loan plays by different rules - but since the bank is federally insured, the gov can charge you with fraud regarless of whether or not there is default.
It falls under “obtaining funds by misleading”.
Posted on 8/20/18 at 9:56 am to SDVTiger
quote:Look it up, idiot
In Manafort's case, it was a quid pro quo situation with the loan officer
What
quote:Ask somebody about it
But do you really have faith in banks after the complete financial meltdown and self dealing criminality of the 2000s?
What
Posted on 8/20/18 at 9:57 am to JuiceTerry
quote:
But do you really have faith in banks after the complete financial meltdown and self dealing criminality of the 2000s?
One could say
But do you really have faith in the government after the complete financial meltdown and self dealing criminality of the 2000s?
Posted on 8/20/18 at 9:58 am to Covingtontiger77
It is against federal law to lie on credit card or loan applications. "Due diligence" has nothing to do with it, and this is a stupid argument. If you do "due diligence" you decrease your odds of being murdered , but murdering you is still against the law.
Separate Manfort being tried for the laws he broke from Trump.
Separate Manfort being tried for the laws he broke from Trump.
Posted on 8/20/18 at 10:00 am to Covingtontiger77
Bank fraud statutes are not intended primarily to protect the banks themselves ... thjough they do have that effect. They are intended to protect the federal government in its role as insurer of deposits with financial institutions.
False Statements (18 U.S.C. § 1014)
Section 1014 of Title 18, United States Code, covers the knowing making of false statements or willfully overvaluing any property or security for the purpose of influencing in any way the action of the enumerated agencies and organizations.
Generally, the making of a number of false statements to a lending institution in a single document constitutes only one criminal violation under section 1014. See United States v. Sue, 586 F.2d 70, 71 (8th Cir. 1978). See also United States v. Thibadeau, 671 F.2d 75, 79 (2d Cir. 1982). However, in Bins v. United States, 331 F.2d 390 (5th Cir.), cert. denied, 379 U.S. 880 (1964), the court of appeals found duplicity in an indictment that charged the defendant in each count with making false statements on two different FHA forms. In United States v. Canas, 595 F.2d 73, 78 (5th Cir. 1979), the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit distinguished Bins and found that an indictment can properly charge in a single count false statements made on different documents as long as the documents are necessary parts of a loan package meant to obtain a single loan.
The elements of the offense of making a false statement are: (1) making a false statement or willfully overvaluing property or security knowing the same to be false, (2) for the purpose of influencing in any way the action, (3) of the enumerated agencies and organizations. Actual damage or reliance is not an essential element of the offense. See Kay v. United States, 303 U.S. 1 (1938); United States v. Sabatino, 495 F.2d 540 (2d Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 948 (1974); United States v. Trexler, 474 F.2d 369 (5th Cir.), cert. denied, 412 U.S. 929 (1973). In the Kay case below, the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit held that it was no defense that the false statements inflating the amount of the mortgage claim were not influential in securing favorable action; the important fact was that the false statements were made for the purpose of influencing action. United States v. Kay, 101 F.2d 270 (2d Cir. 1939), cert. denied, 306 U.S. 660 (1939).
Reliance on the false statements is not an element of a 18 U.S.C. § 1014 prosecution. See United States v. Tokoph, 514 F.2d 597, 604 (10th Cir. 1975). Furthermore, there need not be any actual defrauding of the bank. See United States v. Kennedy, 564 F.2d 1329 (9th Cir. 1977), cert. denied, 435 U.S. 944 (1978). The statute requires that all statements supplied to lending institutions that have the capacity to influence those institutions be accurate or at least not knowingly false. In this regard the false statement may have the requisite capacity to influence not only at inception but also over the life of the loan with respect to extending the loan, deferring action upon it or modifying it. The statute does not require that the information be furnished before the debt is incurred. See United States v. Gardner, 681 F.2d 733 (11th Cir. 1982). A false statement under Section 1014 includes a statement that the information be furnished before the debt is incurred. See United States v. Gardner, 681 F.2d 733 (11th Cir. 1982). A false statement under Section 1014 includes a statement that a particular party is to be a borrower on a loan when in fact that party is never intended to receive the loan proceeds or have any liability on the loan. United States v. Adamson, 665 F.2d 649, 659 (5th Cir. 1982), rev'd on other grounds, 700 F.2d 953 (5th Cir. 1983)(en banc), cert. denied, 464 U.S. 833 (1983).
False Statements (18 U.S.C. § 1014)
Section 1014 of Title 18, United States Code, covers the knowing making of false statements or willfully overvaluing any property or security for the purpose of influencing in any way the action of the enumerated agencies and organizations.
Generally, the making of a number of false statements to a lending institution in a single document constitutes only one criminal violation under section 1014. See United States v. Sue, 586 F.2d 70, 71 (8th Cir. 1978). See also United States v. Thibadeau, 671 F.2d 75, 79 (2d Cir. 1982). However, in Bins v. United States, 331 F.2d 390 (5th Cir.), cert. denied, 379 U.S. 880 (1964), the court of appeals found duplicity in an indictment that charged the defendant in each count with making false statements on two different FHA forms. In United States v. Canas, 595 F.2d 73, 78 (5th Cir. 1979), the United States Court of Appeals for the Fifth Circuit distinguished Bins and found that an indictment can properly charge in a single count false statements made on different documents as long as the documents are necessary parts of a loan package meant to obtain a single loan.
The elements of the offense of making a false statement are: (1) making a false statement or willfully overvaluing property or security knowing the same to be false, (2) for the purpose of influencing in any way the action, (3) of the enumerated agencies and organizations. Actual damage or reliance is not an essential element of the offense. See Kay v. United States, 303 U.S. 1 (1938); United States v. Sabatino, 495 F.2d 540 (2d Cir. 1973), cert. denied, 415 U.S. 948 (1974); United States v. Trexler, 474 F.2d 369 (5th Cir.), cert. denied, 412 U.S. 929 (1973). In the Kay case below, the United States Court of Appeals for the Second Circuit held that it was no defense that the false statements inflating the amount of the mortgage claim were not influential in securing favorable action; the important fact was that the false statements were made for the purpose of influencing action. United States v. Kay, 101 F.2d 270 (2d Cir. 1939), cert. denied, 306 U.S. 660 (1939).
Reliance on the false statements is not an element of a 18 U.S.C. § 1014 prosecution. See United States v. Tokoph, 514 F.2d 597, 604 (10th Cir. 1975). Furthermore, there need not be any actual defrauding of the bank. See United States v. Kennedy, 564 F.2d 1329 (9th Cir. 1977), cert. denied, 435 U.S. 944 (1978). The statute requires that all statements supplied to lending institutions that have the capacity to influence those institutions be accurate or at least not knowingly false. In this regard the false statement may have the requisite capacity to influence not only at inception but also over the life of the loan with respect to extending the loan, deferring action upon it or modifying it. The statute does not require that the information be furnished before the debt is incurred. See United States v. Gardner, 681 F.2d 733 (11th Cir. 1982). A false statement under Section 1014 includes a statement that the information be furnished before the debt is incurred. See United States v. Gardner, 681 F.2d 733 (11th Cir. 1982). A false statement under Section 1014 includes a statement that a particular party is to be a borrower on a loan when in fact that party is never intended to receive the loan proceeds or have any liability on the loan. United States v. Adamson, 665 F.2d 649, 659 (5th Cir. 1982), rev'd on other grounds, 700 F.2d 953 (5th Cir. 1983)(en banc), cert. denied, 464 U.S. 833 (1983).
This post was edited on 8/20/18 at 10:26 am
Posted on 8/20/18 at 10:01 am to Pvt Hudson
quote:
since the bank is federally insured, the gov can charge you with fraud regarless of whether or not there is default.
This is where, I suspect, the government justifies its right to criminalize lying on loan applications. The public is on the hook for banks going bust.
This post was edited on 8/20/18 at 10:02 am
Posted on 8/20/18 at 10:02 am to JuiceTerry
quote:
Manafort attempted to fleece them by submitting fraudulent documentation, allegedly
If he's in default on the loan, then it's an easier case to prosecute. If he's current or has paid off a sizeable amount , it gets harder to prove
Fraud is common in loan applications, it's the level of fraud that raises red flags
Posted on 8/20/18 at 10:03 am to JuiceTerry
quote:
Look it up, idiot
Look what up. Moron
quote:
Ask somebody about it
Ask about what? How dumb are you
Posted on 8/20/18 at 11:31 am to KiwiHead
quote:
Fraud is common in loan applications, it's the level of fraud that raises red flags
But rarely does it draw fire from a SC.
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