re: Ashli Babbitt’s Husband Sues D.C. Over Failure to Identify Officer Who Killed His Wife

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as Babbitt tried to climb through a window inside the Capitol building, where a pro-Trump mob was smashing windows and the kicking doors that stood between them and the Speaker’s Lobby.


Maybe she shouldn't have done that....

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By that definition, is there even such a thing as murder? Just let the shooter decide on whatever behavior they think someone else should not do. You should alert your representative.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

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In my opinion, attending any public display when mob behavior is present is a reckless disregard for safety. The deceased did not use good judgment.

But the reason for her demise is not on her. It’s on the officer who chose to use lethal force when a less than lethal technique (a stiff-arm, a palm heal strike, or even a well executed takedown for the purpose of arresting her) was better justified and would likely have been successful in stopping her advance.

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Probably so. From a legal perspective, assuming it's a bad shoot, I agree the fault lies with the bad actor first and foremost.

From a moral/social/familial perspective, she was reckless and put stupidity above her family and her family is dealing with the consequences of that. It's akin to me starting a road rage fight on the interstate and someone shooting me and leaving my kid without a dad.

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akin to me starting a road rage fight on the interstate and someone shooting me and leaving my kid without a dad.

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no. It’s a kin to your wife trying to pursue justice after your shooting, finding out the shooter was a policeman, and not even being able to get his name. Meanwhile, his police department exonerates him without trial. That’s what it’s akin to.

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Starting a roadside argument with Joe Redneck is not akin to having faith that a law enforcement officer will not unlawfully execute a woman posing no lethal threat to the officer.

She probably expected to be arrested, and likely would have complied. Some people willfully engage in noncompliant behavior for the purpose of being arrested. That’s a highly common outcome during protests. The average protester has no expectation to be executed on the spot unless they present an imminent lethal threat to fellow humans. The public knows there are limitations to an officer’s behavior and their action must be justified and reasonable.

Road rage is totally different. There are no rules, and there is no expectation that people will behave reasonably.

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I think this is contorting the facts a bit (on both ends).

If you are in the middle of something akin to a riot/protest/unrest, with tempers flaring in parts, and you are screaming and crawling through the glass of a broken window while doing so toward something some officers have decided to protect, your expectation of calm, reasoned action isn't reasonable. Moreover, I think the idea that she would have complied is a bit of a reach for someone who was crawling through a broken window toward guys with guns at the US Capitol. It was a pretty unprecedented incident even if you take a pretty neutral look at it.

Meanwhile, most road rage incidents end in verbal spat, fewer end some blows, very few end in gunfire. So yeah, I think it's a reasonable comparison. Both are fact patterns where a person in a blind rage takes an ill-advised action to which there is a deadly (and arguably here, unjustified) response.

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how would you articulate your justification for shooting Ashli Babbit?

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“Bitch set me up” has worked in D.C. before. I would go with that.

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An expectation of calmed reasoned action may not be completely reasonable, but who expects lethal force when not a single protester was armed? The only armed Individuals were cops. When a cop is armed, they have an obligation to de-escalate. Lethal force is de-escalation, but it requires by law that an officer must reasonably believe that their life or the lives of others is subject to an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury. So it is absolutely reasonable for a person to expect a nonlethal response.

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Is this true? I can't imagine it is unless they had to be unarmed to attend or something. My point is not that the capitol riot was an armed confrontation, but I'm unaware of anything that would have let a cop working the situation believe that everyone they were dealing with was unarmed (so please advise)

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If you were that officer, how would you articulate your justification for shooting Ashli Babbit? In what way did that small woman present an imminent threat of death or serious bodily injury?

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Devil's advocate (considering I suggested it was probably a bad shoot)? Assuming they can credibly argue that there were elected officials close by, I'd likely claim that I was guarding people I thought were in imminent danger from a crowd that was honing in on our area and in particular from someone screaming and crawling through a broken window, that despite guns being drawn the mob was breaking windows to surge inside and that I feared for my life and the lives of those I was charged to protect, and that I'd quickly be overwhelmed by those coming through the windows/doors and disarmed (perhaps to have my weapon used against me, as in the Rayshard Brooks defense).

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screaming and crawling through the glass of a broken window

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No screaming. No crawling through broken glass. No movement toward guys with guns. Aside from that, great description.

FWIW, there is no solid indication Babbitt knew the open portal she climbed through was even supposed to have glass in it. It appears there was no glass in it when she arrived.

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At the time of her death she is screaming and crawling over broken glass to get to a secured area where armed guards are standing and pointing guns at her

I'm not really sure what else I can say if we can't agree with what's on tape. I see no need to change the narrative to elevate her to sainthood, she was probably the victim of a bad shoot and the truth is sufficient for me to think so (unless/until more comes out).

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What we see on video is 4 Capitol officers guarding those doors inexplicably just walk off nonchalantly for no reason allowing those people to do whatever they wanted. If the lobby is such a holy grail of safety that it requires shooting an unarmed woman, then you'd think those 4 officers would've tried a little harder.

Not to mention, how come no one really talks about the 2 guys that lifted Babbitt up to put her through the window?

I don't know man. I'm not one of those conspiracy loons but there sure were some weird shite that happened that day.