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Amid doctor shortage, NPs and PAs seemed like a fix. Data’s in: Nope.

Posted on 4/24/22 at 11:30 am
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
123887 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 11:30 am
quote:

Amid doctor shortage, NPs and PAs seemed like a fix. Data’s in: Nope.
by Andis Robeznieks
March 17, 2022


An examination of cost data for the South Mississippi system’s accountable care organization (ACO) revealed that care provided by nonphysician providers working on their own patient panels was more expensive than care delivered by doctors.

This prompted Hattiesburg Clinic leaders to redesign the clinic’s care model and to publish their findings. Hattiesburg Clinic employed a total of 26 physician assistants (PAs) and nurse practitioners (NPs) in 2005 and today there are 118. Along with certified registered nurse anesthetists and optometrists, they are part of a team of 186 nonphysician providers at the clinic, also called advanced practice providers (APPs).

“Over the past 15 years, in the face of physician shortages, especially in primary care, Hattiesburg Clinic made decisions to expand our care teams with the use of advanced practice providers,” says a study entitled “Targeting Value-based Care with Physician-led Care Teams” that was published in the Journal of the Mississippi State Medical Association.

“Focusing specifically on primary care, because our shortage of physicians there was so dire—due to retirements, massive panel sizes and lack of medical students entering primary care residencies—we allowed APPs to function with separate primary care panels, side by side with their collaborating physicians,” the study adds.

In hindsight and “with a wealth of internal data,” which includes cost data on more than 33,000 patients enrolled in Medicare, “the results are consistent and clear: By allowing APPs to function with independent panels under physician supervision, we failed to meet our goals in the primary care setting of providing patients with an equivalent value-based experience.”

LINK
Posted by member12
Bob's Country Bunker
Member since May 2008
32095 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 11:35 am to
Gulf coast states like La and Ms need more rural medical schools and more primary care residency slots. And better loan repayment programs to attract students.
Posted by Jizzy08
Member since Aug 2008
11223 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 11:41 am to
Mid levels don’t have the training or experience to practice medicine independently. Too many unnecessary tests and too many specialists referrals.

“One week of lower back pain, you need an MRI.”

“You have high blood pressure, should definitely be seeing a cardiologist about that.”
Posted by salty1
Member since Jun 2015
4429 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 11:55 am to
Why not identify kids with the aptitude and work ethic to become medical doctors at an early age...say around 12. They would then start a STEM based curriculum and their professional training could be paid through scholarship. They eventually achieve their MD and complete residency at random charity hospitals. Every kid with the god given gifts required to become a medical doctor would have an equal opportunity. No quotas...you either have it or you don’t. White, black, whatever...you make it on your own merits.

Remove the financial burden and identify the candidates at a young enough age to ensure that the only reason they aren’t able to successfully become a doctor is if they wash out of the program due to lack of performance.

Within a generation, our MD shortage is solved. We could similarly identify individuals well suited for NP and PA, nurses, etc.

Do the same for any field struggling to produce trained professionals. Engineers, Skilled Labor, etc.

Basically, identify the talent, cultivate the talent, society succeeds. How many kids are growing up in the ghettos that have the aptitude to become physicians? Probably 10s of thousands. How many poor kids in rural America? Probably 100s of thousands. They could achieve anything, but our society (civilization really) is structured that 90% of highly skilled professionals only come from affluent families or under the burden of massive amounts of debt. They prop up the 10% that are able to climb up from the mud and make it, as if that’s some great accomplishment. 10% (and it’s probably not that high) is pathetic.
Posted by Stingray
Shreveport
Member since Sep 2007
12420 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 12:03 pm to
This nation might be able to created enough doctors, but we would have to figure out the definition of "woman" first.
Posted by BayouENGR
Seagrove Beach
Member since Nov 2015
2292 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 12:03 pm to
quote:

Mid levels don’t have the training or experience to practice medicine independently. Too many unnecessary tests and too many specialists referrals.


This! Know a PA who’s especially proud of the fact that he orders so many tests to be able to provide a diagnosis, which always includes prescription medications as a result.

As a result, too many folks are putting too much stuff into their bodies that they’ll never be able to stop taking.
This post was edited on 4/24/22 at 12:04 pm
Posted by salty1
Member since Jun 2015
4429 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 12:04 pm to
quote:

This nation might be able to created enough doctors, but we would have to figure out the definition of "woman" first.


Touché

Posted by Stingray
Shreveport
Member since Sep 2007
12420 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 12:04 pm to
quote:

salty1


Or, maybe people should be free to choose what job they do, at an age that would give some weight to that decision.
Posted by salty1
Member since Jun 2015
4429 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 12:18 pm to
quote:

Or, maybe people should be free to choose what job they do, at an age that would give some weight to that decision.


That’s exactly what I proposed. No one would be forced to do a damn thing. Testing is good enough now to identify not only those that have the intelligence to succeed in a certain field of work, but the desire also. Those that are identified would not be forced to do anything.

Today, the overwhelming majority do not have a choice. They give up on accomplishing their potential before they graduate HS, if they graduate at all. Financial barriers are the hardest to overcome. The idiots in charge tried to correct this by giving anyone with a pulse access to government student loans. All that’s done is build up $1.7 trillion in debt that will probably never be paid back.

I personally paid off $60,000 In student loan debt in 2021. I’m proud that it’s gone, but it’s ridiculous that it was needed to begin with. Anyone preaching for student loan forgiveness can kiss my arse. I said the same before I paid these off (after almost 15 years of paying on them).

We need to change how we fundamentally build the corps of professionals our society needs to exist, not pass an additional $2 trillion in debt off to tax payers (myself included). It sucks, but everyone that took out a loan up to this point did so on their own accord. Deal with it.

The only way to build for the future is make it an equal opportunity arrangement. If you test well enough to follow a specific path, we should make sure they have the opportunity to reach their potential. Again, with no fricking quotas or any consideration for their fricking race, religion, sex, and anything else.
This post was edited on 4/24/22 at 12:21 pm
Posted by Clames
Member since Oct 2010
16560 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 12:37 pm to
quote:

Testing is good enough now to identify not only those that have the intelligence to succeed in a certain field of work, but the desire also. Those that are identified would not be forced to do anything.


No it doesn't. Don't know where you are getting this idea but it is far from true.


quote:

They give up on accomplishing their potential before they graduate HS, if they graduate at all. Financial barriers are the hardest to overcome.


Then they don't have what it takes to get through medical school.


quote:

I personally paid off $60,000 In student loan debt in 2021.


My fiancée completed her Ph.D, DMD, and paid for her residency program without a single penny loaned. Her only income was a very small stipend her Ph.D. paid and she saved more than $50k from that to pay for her expenses in residency. Nobody needs to get a loan, just too many of your are too soft in the head and body to actually sacrifice and manage your lives on what is actually needed. Too many think they need creature comforts to survive.

quote:

The only way to build for the future is make it an equal opportunity arrangement.


Already exists. It's called having a serious hard work ethic.
This post was edited on 4/24/22 at 12:40 pm
Posted by salty1
Member since Jun 2015
4429 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 1:06 pm to
quote:

Clames


You’re way off the mark bud. Why the frick are you making this personal?

I’m almost 50, spent 12 years in the Marine Corps infantry (only time I was away from the battalions was to be an instructor at SOTG and at the school of infantry). Fought on three continents, and would probably still be on active duty if I hadn’t been severely injured overseas.

I then went back to school and finished with a 4.00. VocRehab paid for my education. My debt was actually for my wife, who at 30 years old, went back to school and finished her undergrad and her masters. We are both very much gainfully employed and pay a shite ton in taxes every year.

Tell me again how I’m “soft in the head and body”.

Again, why are you trying to make an otherwise good discussion so personal?
This post was edited on 4/24/22 at 11:44 pm
Posted by Auburn80
Backwater, TN
Member since Nov 2017
7496 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 1:09 pm to
quote:

Mid levels don’t have the training or experience to practice medicine independently. Too many unnecessary tests and too many specialists referrals.


I agree with this, but the better solution is for Medicare to reimburse Primary Care docs at higher rates and offset it from what they pay specialists. PC docs make 150K to 250K dependent on location while an Orthopedic doc or Cardiologist is making 3 times that. It’s out of balance and nobody wants to go into primary care. It’s also why you are seeing all the new DO schools popping up to fill the void.
Posted by ksayetiger
Centenary Gents
Member since Jul 2007
68299 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 1:12 pm to
quote:

And better loan repayment programs to attract students.
quote:

rural


If a doctor practices in a rural hospital all med school debt is paid for.
Posted by Diamondawg
Mississippi
Member since Oct 2006
32235 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 1:22 pm to
quote:


Mid levels don’t have the training or experience to practice medicine independently. Too many unnecessary tests and too many specialists referrals.
I know someone that became a NP after doing a fast track nursing program followed by the standard Master's level NP program. She is quite sharp but no way that compares to 4 years of medical school followed by in this case, 3 year residency in Family Practice.
When they say "their own panels" is that sort like order sets that they are allowed to use to get more information so as to care for the patient, whereas an MD would forego some of the diagnostic tools and determine on intuition what's going on with the patient? I didn't delve into but what's the conclusion as to why their is higher than the MD or DO's?
Posted by NC_Tigah
Carolinas
Member since Sep 2003
123887 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 1:29 pm to
quote:

PC docs make 150K to 250K dependent on location while an Orthopedic doc or Cardiologist is making 3 times that.
Just to be clear, Ortho and Cards training pathways are twice as long and far more competitive. So there should be a differential, right?

But to further your thought, Medicare and insurance in general reimburse services performed by the top physicians on the planet identically to those performed by a new graduate of the lowest-rated residency in the country.

Clearly it's a ridiculous system.
Posted by DesScorp
Alabama
Member since Sep 2017
6489 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 1:30 pm to
quote:

Gulf coast states like La and Ms need more rural medical schools and more primary care residency slots. And better loan repayment programs to attract students.


It’s not just the lack of med schools. It’s the amount of cost, time, and trouble to become a doctor in the American system. And then there’s the cost and trouble of BEING a doctor. And then there’s the hassle of the insurance system.

THIS is why all your doctors come from Pakistan, India, and Africa now.
Posted by RemouladeSawce
Uranus
Member since Sep 2008
13930 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 1:39 pm to
quote:

Amid doctor shortage, NPs and PAs seemed like a fix. Data’s in: Nope.
That "data's" been "in" for a while, and it shows the opposite. Positioning anything as a new revelation, with the "data" being a single rural ACO? Wonder what drives such disingenousness?
quote:

The American Medical Association is a professional association and lobbying group of physicians and medical students.
Oh
This post was edited on 4/24/22 at 1:44 pm
Posted by Cosmo
glassman's guest house
Member since Oct 2003
120257 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 1:42 pm to
See this first hand every day

PAs and NPs order way more worthless tests because they dont know what theyre doing

Though as a general rule PAs are better than NPs

PAs and NPs can be great if subspecialized in surgery or something but they suck in primary care
Posted by LSUFanHouston
NOLA
Member since Jul 2009
37081 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 1:44 pm to
quote:


Mid levels don’t have the training or experience to practice medicine independently. Too many unnecessary tests and too many specialists referrals.

“One week of lower back pain, you need an MRI.”



My wife has been having some shoulder pain for over a month and it’s getting worse. So we made her an appointment with an orthopedic doctor for a date 3 weeks in future.

2 days before appt she gets a call from office telling her to go get an X-ray before the appointment. I.e. before anyone saw her.

She said ok and went.

She then goes to the appointment. Never sees the doctor… he wasn’t even if office that day. She is seen by a NP who tells her… well nothing on X-ray shows a break… take these 800 mg ibuprofen 3x a day and see if it’s inflammation that goes down. If that doesn’t work in two weeks call us back and we can discuss physical therapy.

After 5 days she is in slightly less pain.

I made the appointment with the MD though…
This post was edited on 4/24/22 at 1:45 pm
Posted by AMS
Member since Apr 2016
6495 posts
Posted on 4/24/22 at 1:48 pm to
quote:

I know someone that became a NP after doing a fast track nursing program followed by the standard Master's level NP program. She is quite sharp but no way that compares to 4 years of medical school followed by in this case, 3 year residency in Family Practice.


there is nothing that can reliably be substituted for medical school and residency training and that should be obvious to everyone. higher standards with more rigorous training for a much longer time frame.
its like a decorated navy seal vs national guardsman type difference.

quote:

When they say "their own panels" is that sort like order sets that they are allowed to use to get more information so as to care for the patient, whereas an MD would forego some of the diagnostic tools and determine on intuition what's going on with the patient? I didn't delve into but what's the conclusion as to why their is higher than the MD or DO's?

not really 'intuition', its more to do with your first 2 sentences, the NP training does not compare to the physicians. more knowledge and better ability to utilize information from diagnostic tests means docs can interpret more with less. docs are more likely to know what tests they do or don't need to tactfully work through the differential diagnoses. midlevels don't have that same experience/knowledge and are more likely to over-order tests hoping they can get some guiding information instead of tactfully working the differential diagnoses.
This post was edited on 4/24/22 at 1:49 pm
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