re: A fact worth remembering: Those who don't believe in God argue against absolutes

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An objective moral standard is one that applies equally and universally to all humanity, who are moral beings; it's a standard that originates outside of the human experience.

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According to your beliefs, sure.

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Given that understanding, where does an objective moral standard come from if all morality is derived from the human mind and from the human experience? That is subjectivity not objectivity. The existence of God provides the possibility for objective moral reasoning that doesn't exist without His existence, which is why these discussions tend to move towards religion because only religion provides a rational basis for objective moral reasoning.

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Again, everything you keep staying in this thread is 100% rooted in your beliefs and what you have read or been taught pursuant to those beliefs.

You just repeating it over and over does not make it empirically or universally true. It’s simply what you believe.

“My religious philosophy says that morality cannot exist without god and therefore it cannot exist without god”

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we're a lot closer to determining this in 2020 than we were in 1920 than we were in 20. that's the point of progress

neuroscience is helping a lot in this field. we are getting where we can see, in real time, how different stimuli affect our brains

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Again, what standard are you using to even measure progress? How can you possibly know if we're making progress if you can't even nail down a standard of measurement?

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well, the fact that we can have this discussion is one. heresy used to be illegal

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How do we know that being able to have this discussion is progress vs. regress? Where is it written that such freedom is a goal of human morality?

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the fact that we have used these societal building blocks to create the technological framework to exchange the ideas is another

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That's a "what", not a "why". What is the standard that says that sophistication of technology is a moral good?

It seems that you're using utility and pragmatism as your standards for morality but I don't think you've said as much. What do you think?

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i can give you a somewhat objective truth about humans (it's not really mortality). the more information we are allowed to consume, the more advanced our brain's get. that's why the Flynn effect is real and why international cooperation has supercharged our advancement

that or alien technology

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You're right. That isn't really morality (if you meant to say "morality"). We're talking about objective moral reasoning and you've provided no example of such a standard to judge actions by. You've only listed examples of actions compared to other actions and called it "progress", but again, how do you judge progress without a standard for the ideal?

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i think you overrate the individual within the context of society

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I don't. Morality within the context of society is either the preference of one individual in society or the consensus of multiple individuals' preferences in society. It doesn't change that secular societal morality is nothing more than individual preference.

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According to your beliefs, sure.

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Please provide a definition of what constitutes an objective moral standard if it isn't one that applies equally and universally to all humanity.

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Again, everything you keep staying in this thread is 100% rooted in your beliefs and what you have read or been taught pursuant to those beliefs.

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What I believe is also a coherent explanation for the reality I perceive. It's not some arbitrary belief system that I'm clinging to out of sentiment. My beliefs provide a rational framework for interpreting reality.

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You just repeating it over and over does not make it empirically or universally true. It’s simply what you believe.

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It's not "simply what [I] believe". My belief system or worldview provides a coherent and rational basis for interpreting reality at the presuppositional level that doesn't exist outside of this worldview.

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“My religious philosophy says that morality cannot exist without god and therefore it cannot exist without god”

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Reality aligns with my belief system on this point.

So morality driven by the demands of a mythical all powerful creator is superior to morality by choice. That makes sense...
Let’s not even get into the questionable morality of every religion including christianity.

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It seems that you're using utility and pragmatism as your standards for morality but I don't think you've said as much.

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He did, he claimed that pragmatism and morality were one and the same a page or two ago.

If people have differing definitions of words then conversation is fairly pointless. Some people apparently think that the word "objective" is some sort of Christian theological construct.

Arguing for the morality of something subjectively vs objectively is such a meaningless distinction. If your only coherent way of defining objective morality is tying it to something as incoherent as God then you have a lot of leg work to do before scorning others as subjectively moral.

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Why wouldn't that make sense? "Morality by choice" is nothing but personal preference. Who cares about that? I don't suppose you care what my favorite kind of soft drink is. That's essentially what we're getting at with subjective morality.

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Allow me to give you numerous examples:

1. Choosing to not kill someone because you believe it is wrong versus choosing not to kill someone because it is against the law and there is negative consequences.

2. Choosing to marry someone because you love them as opposed to the doing so due to the demands of your parents.

3. Choosing to be thoughtful of a stranger's needs because you believe it is the right thing to do as opposed to doing so to gain favor with someone (or something) else.

4. Choosing to put the needs of family members over your own because you believe in the importance of family as opposed to pleasing a higher authority.

I could go on. Secular beliefs and moral standards can be based on objective realities divorced from religious texts. Stating that morality based on the demands of a higher authority is somehow superior is ridiculous.

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Let's do. How about you start by defining your moral standard (to use to condemn what the Bible says) and where you obtained that standard.

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To grossly oversimplify it for the sake of abbreviated conversation my moral standard is based on millennia of evolved human social behavior mixed with philosophy born from the enlightenment and personal growth as a thoughtful human being.

Ironically, the reality is that just about every religion also derives their morality from similar sources, they simply have convinced their followers that their morality comes from a fallible human written religious text from eons ago. Just look at the moral progression of the catholic and protestant church over just the last few hundred years. You cannot claim to hold objective morality and then claim your morality is based on a religion whose morality has evolved substantially throughout its history.

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Again, what standard are you using to even measure progress? How can you possibly know if we're making progress if you can't even nail down a standard of measurement?

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Well sure, people oftentimes conflate the word “progress”—much like “evolve”—with the meaning of “better,”(by whatever standard you use for that word, even) and readers tend to infer that’s the connotation in which the author meant it. But it really can be neutral, with no value judgement, indicating how much and how quickly something changed.

But this underscores one of the thoughts I tend to be lead to, that if you dig down deep enough, into the minds of each of us who are intellectually honest—whether believer or atheist—a lot of our differences can really be reduced to semantics. We all have similar thoughts on our existence and what it means on some level, we just have different vocabularies with which to express them.

And this is not some “gotcha” question, I’m genuinely curious, but if instead of being born where you were, when you were, to the parents you were, you were born in Yemen, or Afghanistan, or China—anywhere without a prominent presence of Western Christianity in the culture—how and what would you believe right now? And what does that suggest about your salvation? Or salvation in general?

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Well sure, people oftentimes conflate the word “progress”—much like “evolve”—with the meaning of “better,”(by whatever standard you use for that word, even) and readers tend to infer that’s the connotation in which the author meant it. But it really can be neutral, with no value judgement, indicating how much and how quickly something changed.

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While this is true, when people say that their morality has evolved and progressed over the years they almost always mean "for the better" with a value judgement associated to it. They almost always clarify that their moral standard has eliminated "bad" behaviors and actions while promoting "good" behaviors and actions for the sake of utility, individual comfort or happiness, or some other subjective experience. I'm just trying to get to the heart of the matter, which is what standard is a person using to make moral judgements.

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But this underscores one of the thoughts I tend to be lead to, that if you dig down deep enough, into the minds of each of us who are intellectually honest—whether believer or atheist—a lot of our differences can really be reduced to semantics. We all have similar thoughts on our existence and what it means on some level, we just have different vocabularies with which to express them.

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I actually agree with you, but my Christian worldview explains the similarities in terms of biblical truths. In this case, I believe all people generally know what is right and what is wrong because all people are made in the image of God with His moral law written on our hearts and minds. We were created as moral creatures and we express that in our lives every day. The problem is with sin that clouds our intellects, emotions, and desires and prevents us from understanding rightly or prompts us to ignore what is right.

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And this is not some “gotcha” question, I’m genuinely curious, but if instead of being born where you were, when you were, to the parents you were, you were born in Yemen, or Afghanistan, or China—anywhere without a prominent presence of Western Christianity in the culture—how and what would you believe right now?

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Since that is a hypothetical question, I have no idea. I'm blessed to have been born in a time and place where I have been exposed to the gospel message and God used it to change my heart to seek after Him through Jesus Christ.

That said, the "great commission" from Jesus was meant to provide this same message all throughout the world and it has been successful in reaching to the corners of the world. The gospel is flourishing in places like China, in spite of the tyrannical atheistic regime there, and the Church is just underground. I would hope that in God's providence that if I were born elsewhere, that He would be gracious to me to have missionaries be there to provide the gospel message to me and that He would use it to change my heart and desire to obey Him out of love for His sacrifice on my behalf.

If I weren't blessed enough to be saved due to lack of exposure to the gospel and a lack of work of the Spirit in me, then I would be like the billions of people on earth that have lived and died in rebellion against God and would reap the condemnation from God that I deserve for that rebellion.

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And what does that suggest about your salvation? Or salvation in general?

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It suggests that salvation comes through the gospel alone and that it is very important that Christians follow the example and command of Jesus Christ to preach the truth of that gospel throughout the world to all peoples, nations, and tongues. Jesus is the only way to salvation which is why it's important that the gospel is preached throughout the world at all times and to all peoples.