re: 12th Grade Girls Are Far Less Likely Than Boys To Say They Want To Get Married Someday

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You, and many progressives, devalue what women can do in the home because you overvalue what happens outside of the home.

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Right .... they devalue what women can do in the home UNTIL an ACTUAL state-issued accounting of worth is conducted during divorce proceedings.

As Cubs has consistently discounted those facts as not representative of marriage, but rather divorce, and as I have limited interest in divorce, I'd not engaged. But you bring that point home.

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On the second point, how do you measure "credibility," and "success," in a way that is publicly relevant or shown? Like I get the point, but the whole thing with Home life is that it is private.

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Valid point

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You, and many progressives, devalue what women can do in the home because you overvalue what happens outside of the home.

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not true at all. I have never devalued what women can and ultimately DO in the home. I have consistently argued that men devalue this because this labor typically doesn’t earn tangible income.

I’m not going to argue for or against any blanket claims assigned to political factions like “many progressives.”

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The only thing that matters is "achievement"

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according to whom?

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You simply isolate this to "women do more household chores and don't get public recognition for it," and that's why marriages are bad.

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This is a very disingenuous and inflammatory interpretation of my claim.

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devalue domestic contributions

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That is 101% the CT holding?

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Reference to the "oldest profession"?

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Naw, just the "gender wage gap."

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not true at all. I have never devalued what women can and ultimately DO in the home.

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In modern times, marriage benefits men far more than women. Men get a pretty caretaker who will have sex with them. Women get another human to take care of and clean up after while also working outside of the home and doing the lion's share of childrearing.

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Your words.

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I have consistently argued that men devalue this because this labor typically doesn’t earn tangible income.

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I can tell you want to have an honest conversation about this. But is this men's fault, or feminism and culture's fault?

Look, men will have a tendency to value more, direct competition, superficial signs of power and dominance, etc. etc. To do differently would be to not be men. And some men will give in to not TRULY see the value of things like the home life. But to say that this is what marriage is and it's totally's men's fault is pretty short sighted. Men aren't the ones who assaulted the idea of the traditional family. Not at all.

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I’m not going to argue for or against any blanket claims assigned to political factions like “many progressives.”

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That's fine, but most of these ideas about marriage only come from one side.

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according to whom?

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Most of your points align to what success looks like outside of the home, vs. what happens inside of the home. I'm just bucketing all of that outside the home stuff as achievement. And I use that term loosely, because it's pretty lame. Achievement is the ability to buy a bunch of stuff, woohoo?

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This is a very disingenuous and inflammatory interpretation of my claim.

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Well even looking at the studies you linked, let's take this for instance:

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Husbands in so-called egalitarian marriages, where they earn the same as their wives, spend about 3.5 more hours per week on leisure activities than their wives. Meanwhile, the women in those marriages spend a combined 4.5 more hours on caregiving and housework than their husbands.

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They aren't even looking at hours worked either, men are usually working more overtime.

I'd wonder here if there are some things that are work that men view as leisure. Most men do like working on cars, or fixing things etc., and might only count ACTUAL leisure activities as leisure. Mowing the grass on a riding tractor is a good time.

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The type of chores that men and women do also differ, Mangino noted. Women often handle more routine and indoor tasks than their husbands, such as cooking, cleaning and bathing the children — chores that must be done daily or else chaos can erupt.

Husbands, by contrast, typically take on outdoor and intermittent jobs such as mowing the lawn — chores that can be skipped for for a week, if needed. Those outdoor tasks generally require much less time than the indoor chores, she added.

"I have had countess people come back and say, 'What you are saying is wrong: I do the outside jobs, my wife does the inside, and it's 50/50'," she said. "But it's nowhere near 50/50 — it's more like a 75/25 range."

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This looks like absolute number, and not time spent. While I'm outside trimming trees, cutting wood, raking the yard - my wife can do the laundry, finish the dishes and probably get lunch on the table.

Women will say she did 3 things. I will say "I did Yardwork." Did she "do" more?

And I 100% disagree with much less time. In aggregate maybe, but most heavy tasks taking significantly longer as a single thing than lighter in home tasks.



Look, at the end of the day - do women spending more time cooking, cleaning and doing laundry? Unless you have an OCD husband, probably so. Men just typically aren't wired for those things naturally, nor do they find enjoyment in them, OR in the result. More often than not, even if we all value it to some extent, women are more prone to find enjoyment in a well-composed, neat and tidy home. Many men - really don't care. Many men would live in apartment with a mattress on the floor and maybe a side table and a chair.

But women are wired, not only to care, but to care that others care. So they "want" their husbands to care and to put in effort. Navigating these sexual differences are part of what marriage is about. But you are putting incorrect emotions on men, and not truly valuing the work you might do in the home.

And look, a good husband will contribute, balance that out, etc. But to get down into these kinds of details and say "Marriages fail because women spend more time on chores than men," is just a bad summation. And again, regardless of what you say, it ignores the reality of sex, of the purpose of marriage (which is not to balance measured outputs of time and money), and all of the things we are supposed to do as humans.

I hung out with friends that are a married couple yesterday. The husband grew up with my husband. The friend met his wife in grad school while my husband and I were dating so I’ve known her their whole relationship. Both of them are awesome. I love them and really enjoy spending time with them both.

We were catching up and discussing marriage. The husband/friend said that if he’s being honest, he expects recognition and praise each time he does a household chore. I think that’s true for many, if not most, men (at least in my generation.)

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I can tell you want to have an honest conversation about this. But is this men's fault, or feminism and culture's fault?

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I don’t consider “feminism” to be a reasonable explanation or culprit for men not valuing women. Imo, men have never valued women. It’s possible that women haven’t valued men either but that’s not what the discussion is really about.

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Men aren't the ones who assaulted the idea of the traditional family. Not at all.

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Women did this? When and how?

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I'm just bucketing all of that outside the home stuff as achievement. And I use that term loosely, because it's pretty lame. Achievement is the ability to buy a bunch of stuff, woohoo?

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Right. I don’t really buy into that on a personal or familial level. Money isn’t everything. Stuff isn’t everything.

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They aren't even looking at hours worked either, men are usually working more overtime

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which they are able to do because their wives are taking care of the kids and home.

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I'd wonder here if there are some things that are work that men view as leisure. Most men do like working on cars, or fixing things etc., and might only count ACTUAL leisure activities as leisure. Mowing the grass on a riding tractor is a good time.

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we have an old school manual lawn mower (the kind with the blades that turn when you push it). We live in an urban area so our yard is pretty tiny but i enjoy cutting it. I like yard work (in the middle of a city). I might feel differently if we lived on acres.

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And I 100% disagree with much less time. In aggregate maybe, but most heavy tasks taking significantly longer as a single thing than lighter in home tasks.

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It surprises me that the assumption is men are doing these big tasks.

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But to get down into these kinds of details and say "Marriages fail because women spend more time on chores than men," is just a bad summation

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Again, that’s a mischaracterization of my claim. Women aren’t valued. Wives are often taken for granted in very significant ways. This could be true for husbands, too. I just don’t think it’s experienced at the same scale wives experience this.

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Imo, men have never valued women.

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Men nay have never valued you but to suggest that men have never valued women is to ignore the inspiration of 75% of all great music, painting, sculpture and writing.

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I think that’s true for many, if not most, men (at least in my generation.)

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Now you’re just making up shite to sound special

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I have consistently argued that men devalue this because this labor typically doesn’t earn tangible income.

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Men that would prefer a stay at home wife?

Talk about a goof on your part.