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Message
re: Whats up with all the love for 1911's?
Posted on 4/29/13 at 1:13 pm to Judge Smails
Posted on 4/29/13 at 1:13 pm to Judge Smails
quote:
But you could see where an average shooter in a defense situation would like the reassurance that is provided by additional mag capacity? Note I've said nothing about a particular type of handgun here... we're strictly talking capacity.
Sure. Lots of things can reassure a shooter: a nice tactical shotgun, a bulletproof vest, panic rooms...
I'm just saying that having more rounds doesn't automatically make a pistol the best option for every shooter.
This post was edited on 4/29/13 at 1:14 pm
2
Posted on 4/29/13 at 1:14 pm to Tom288
I think you have lost this battle but not the war. 
Posted on 4/29/13 at 1:17 pm to Tom288
quote:
I'm just saying that having more rounds doesn't automatically make a pistol the best option for every shooter.
Couldn't agree with you more. That being said, I don't think using military special force "types" as examples is a like comparison. They can do things that few others can, that's why they do what they do for a living.
Posted on 4/29/13 at 1:18 pm to faxis
quote:
Lets get real, part of the original appeal of the 1911 was the fact that it shot more rounds than a revolver.
Well the original appeal was its stopping power. During conflicts with Spain during the end of the 19th century and beginning of the 20th century soldiers realized that their standard issue .38 revolvers were inadequate. They actually reintroduced older Colt 45 revolvers from the Plains Indian Wars because of how inadequate their current revolver was. That's what led to the rise of the .45 and, subsequently (with the emergence of smokeless powder and autoloading mechanisms), the 1911.
Posted on 4/29/13 at 1:19 pm to Choirboy
quote:
I think you have lost this battle but not the war.
Personally, I don't think I've managed to lose even a skirmish yet...
This post was edited on 4/29/13 at 1:20 pm
Posted on 4/29/13 at 1:20 pm to Wooly
quote:
was expecting this thread to be 2 pages tops, mostly of king ranch explaining to me... well shite
Posted on 4/29/13 at 1:22 pm to Judge Smails
quote:
Couldn't agree with you more. That being said, I don't think using military special force "types" as examples is a like comparison. They can do things that few others can, that's why they do what they do for a living.
I think that it illustrates the importance of training and familiarity with what you're using and I would go so far as to say that training and overall proficiency with a firearm are far more important, and influential in a fight, than being able to hold more rounds. I can easily envision many shooters, and this is speculation I admit, becoming overconfident in their chances not because of training but because of overvaluing and over-relying upon their ability to carry a few extra rounds.
This post was edited on 4/29/13 at 1:24 pm
Posted on 4/29/13 at 1:25 pm to Tom288
The ability for "operators" to thrive and survive in those environments and conditions is what I'm in awe of.
Posted on 4/29/13 at 1:57 pm to Tom288
I'll admit, I don't shoot the 1911 and the Glock the same way. I'm much more cautious shooting the 1911 because I know I can't afford not to be. I shoot it like a revolver. But I prefer the way I shoot the Glock because I train to double tap automatically with it. Say what you will about those extra few grains in a .45 round for round, but my two are going to be better than your one. And if it gets your head down or running, I've exponentially increased my chances of surviving the day.
But I've got a lot more ammo to train with than most folks will ever see and have shot a lot more than that. It's a luxury I have been lucky to indulge myself in my whole ancient life. If you can't train to take advantage of it, then you will shoot the two pistols the same way so you should stick to whatever you shoot best.
Having been the unlucky recipient of the wrong end of a drive by where your 'overconfident because he's got lots of rounds' guy dumped a mag on the house I was in, I agree that that guy exists and thank god because if they knew how to shoot they might hurt somebody. The problem is that when that many rounds are coming at you, you don't naturally stick your head up. You reflexively get the frick down and get small. And that's a HUGE tactical advantage if that guy who's got all that ammo also by chance knows how to place them where he wants them. Because you then have to get your head up, get eyes on him, get the gun on him, and shoot before he does when he's ready for you and waiting the whole time.
And while you don't like the feel of that blocky thick grip, you could train yourself to take advantage of it's advantages with enough rounds fired through it. And if you did, you wouldn't want to trust your life to a 1911 again if you had the choice.
But you won't because you got too much emotional attachment to the 1911. Which is my entire point about this argument. The people that tend to get so defensive about this question do it because they are just attached to the 1911. Not because it's better. Is it good enough? frick yeah it is! It's killed so many men it's practically a virus. Is it as good as it gets?
Not anymore.
But I've got a lot more ammo to train with than most folks will ever see and have shot a lot more than that. It's a luxury I have been lucky to indulge myself in my whole ancient life. If you can't train to take advantage of it, then you will shoot the two pistols the same way so you should stick to whatever you shoot best.
Having been the unlucky recipient of the wrong end of a drive by where your 'overconfident because he's got lots of rounds' guy dumped a mag on the house I was in, I agree that that guy exists and thank god because if they knew how to shoot they might hurt somebody. The problem is that when that many rounds are coming at you, you don't naturally stick your head up. You reflexively get the frick down and get small. And that's a HUGE tactical advantage if that guy who's got all that ammo also by chance knows how to place them where he wants them. Because you then have to get your head up, get eyes on him, get the gun on him, and shoot before he does when he's ready for you and waiting the whole time.
And while you don't like the feel of that blocky thick grip, you could train yourself to take advantage of it's advantages with enough rounds fired through it. And if you did, you wouldn't want to trust your life to a 1911 again if you had the choice.
But you won't because you got too much emotional attachment to the 1911. Which is my entire point about this argument. The people that tend to get so defensive about this question do it because they are just attached to the 1911. Not because it's better. Is it good enough? frick yeah it is! It's killed so many men it's practically a virus. Is it as good as it gets?
Not anymore.
Posted on 4/29/13 at 2:31 pm to faxis
You can say, "emotional attachment" as often as you'd like but it doesn't become anymore true. I own a Beretta 92F and HK USP45 Tactical and would feel completely comfortable using either, although the Beretta is mainly for plinking stuff at the range. So you really need to let go of this assumption that I'm blinded by emotion and am therefore irrationally loyal to the 1911 as a result, because it just ain't true.
I've fired thousands and thousands of rounds using all kinds of firearms. I gave Glocks more than a fair trial and it just wasn't for me. You're just going to have to wrap your head around two facts: Glocks don't necessarily reside at the top of the pyramid in general, but especially for some individuals, and some people can, and will, perform just as well, in any condition, with a 1911 (or insert another random model) as someone shooting a Glock or similar polymer striker fire based piece. And my complaints are not restricted to only grip thickness; I dislike the grip angle, trigger system, and just the overall feel and weight of the pistol.
As for your two rounds being better than my one, do you think that you can't double tap a 1911 or something? And I'm still interested in any potential refutation to the option to carry a 1911 with a high cap mag which would give me 11 rounds to work with, hardly a small amount.
I've fired thousands and thousands of rounds using all kinds of firearms. I gave Glocks more than a fair trial and it just wasn't for me. You're just going to have to wrap your head around two facts: Glocks don't necessarily reside at the top of the pyramid in general, but especially for some individuals, and some people can, and will, perform just as well, in any condition, with a 1911 (or insert another random model) as someone shooting a Glock or similar polymer striker fire based piece. And my complaints are not restricted to only grip thickness; I dislike the grip angle, trigger system, and just the overall feel and weight of the pistol.
As for your two rounds being better than my one, do you think that you can't double tap a 1911 or something? And I'm still interested in any potential refutation to the option to carry a 1911 with a high cap mag which would give me 11 rounds to work with, hardly a small amount.
This post was edited on 4/29/13 at 2:32 pm
Posted on 4/29/13 at 2:38 pm to faxis
quote:
Having been the unlucky recipient of the wrong end of a drive by where your 'overconfident because he's got lots of rounds' guy dumped a mag on the house I was in, I agree that that guy exists and thank god because if they knew how to shoot they might hurt somebody. The problem is that when that many rounds are coming at you, you don't naturally stick your head up. You reflexively get the frick down and get small. And that's a HUGE tactical advantage if that guy who's got all that ammo also by chance knows how to place them where he wants them. Because you then have to get your head up, get eyes on him, get the gun on him, and shoot before he does when he's ready for you and waiting the whole time.
OK, so not only gun battles in the streets of America, but gun battles in the streets of America where everyone only has handguns.
Posted on 4/29/13 at 3:11 pm to AlxTgr
But Tom, why would you need more ammo? I thought you'd already decided it wasn't necessary and isn't a factor in this?
Posted on 4/29/13 at 3:20 pm to faxis
quote:
And while you don't like the feel of that blocky thick grip, you could train yourself to take advantage of it's advantages with enough rounds fired through it. And if you did, you wouldn't want to trust your life to a 1911 again if you had the choice.
If you hate the blocky grip, buy something with ergonomics, like an M&P, SR, or XD.
Posted on 4/29/13 at 3:27 pm to bapple
Exactly.
Posted on 4/29/13 at 3:31 pm to bapple
I like how it's pretty much universally excepted that glocks have horrible grip angles, and glock has to say is deal with it
Posted on 4/29/13 at 3:37 pm to bapple
quote:
buy something with ergonomics
Or one like an HK that isn't a true double stack. 13+1 is sufficient and it ends up not being so fat.
Posted on 4/29/13 at 3:41 pm to Gaston
It's like there's been all this innovation and stuff and it all seems to be on the same trajectory towards more ammo for some reason.
Weird.
Weird.
Posted on 4/29/13 at 3:45 pm to faxis
My 357 is 12+1 and that's a lot of damn shots. I guess they didn't want to double stack the ammo for some reason, they just staggered it in some width vs shots trade off.
Posted on 4/29/13 at 3:46 pm to faxis
quote:
It's like there's been all this innovation and stuff and it all seems to be on the same trajectory towards more ammo for some reason.
Weird.
What's even weirder is how the 1911 isn't completely obsolete for some reason...
As for your little remark about using high capacity mags in a 1911 you obviously missed the point that your one strength that you've been e-knighting all thread long, having more rounds, is actually available for 1911's as well so you now have a pistol with 11 rounds and a hell of a lot more stopping power. I'm not sure how you think you helped your cause with that comment.
You also have horrible reading comprehension skills. I never said ammo capacity isn't a factor, I did say that it isn't the only factor and there are several other factors which are much more important. But you seem to have glossed over those points.
This post was edited on 4/29/13 at 3:48 pm
Posted on 4/29/13 at 3:52 pm to Tom288
The 1911 is not obsolete because it's a beloved functional, proven design that has arguably the most comfortable, ergonomically correct angled grip in existence, and a hundred years of cool points built up.
It works. People love it.
But it's not the optimal pistol for self defense anymore. You can now get a variety of pistols that hold more rounds, weigh less, requires less maintenance, and are generally more reliable, for a lot less money.
Just the way it is.
It works. People love it.
But it's not the optimal pistol for self defense anymore. You can now get a variety of pistols that hold more rounds, weigh less, requires less maintenance, and are generally more reliable, for a lot less money.
Just the way it is.
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