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Started By
Message
re: Sighting in Rifle Question(s)
Posted on 10/14/24 at 8:58 am to saintsfan1977
Posted on 10/14/24 at 8:58 am to saintsfan1977
Yep.
Temperature sensitivity is a sign of a junky barrel or poorly built rifle, at least with a bolt action.
The right way to check this rifle out would be a 10 or more shot group, shot at one shot per day, if you dont care about hot barrel accuracy. You can let it cool between shots but in reality, nobody is waiting long enough for it to come all the way back to ambient, especially if internal stress is what is opening the groups up.
After that, you'd shoot an equal sized group with your normal habits, and compare them. My money would bet that it would be two equally shite groups of roughly the same size, but that would tell you 100% for sure if it's a barrel temp thing or not.
Watch the hornady "your groups are too small" podcast episode. They are spot on with their conclusions. In almost every instance, what people perceive to be "flyers" are just part of the normal standard grouping for the setup, viewed in very small individual samples. If you step back and think about your life experiences objectively, you'll likely realize you've never owned a real actual sub MOA rifle, and it just didn't matter. You didn't shoot deer far enough often enough to notice that a 3 MOA setup is perfectly acceptable for your needs. At least that's what happened to me.
Temperature sensitivity is a sign of a junky barrel or poorly built rifle, at least with a bolt action.
The right way to check this rifle out would be a 10 or more shot group, shot at one shot per day, if you dont care about hot barrel accuracy. You can let it cool between shots but in reality, nobody is waiting long enough for it to come all the way back to ambient, especially if internal stress is what is opening the groups up.
After that, you'd shoot an equal sized group with your normal habits, and compare them. My money would bet that it would be two equally shite groups of roughly the same size, but that would tell you 100% for sure if it's a barrel temp thing or not.
Watch the hornady "your groups are too small" podcast episode. They are spot on with their conclusions. In almost every instance, what people perceive to be "flyers" are just part of the normal standard grouping for the setup, viewed in very small individual samples. If you step back and think about your life experiences objectively, you'll likely realize you've never owned a real actual sub MOA rifle, and it just didn't matter. You didn't shoot deer far enough often enough to notice that a 3 MOA setup is perfectly acceptable for your needs. At least that's what happened to me.
0
Posted on 10/14/24 at 8:59 am to BIG Texan
This may help with confirming zero, but it doesn’t confirm the rifle is grouping acceptably.
Posted on 10/14/24 at 9:03 am to turkish
Box stand hunters should also do this exercise at some point during the season. Go to your favorite stand that gives you the longest possible shots. Go put a target at the longest distance you think you could reliably kill a deer at. Get in the stand and shoot a 3 shot group. Be realistic about it, don't bring sandbags and shite unless you hunt that way.
If the only time you shoot at paper is 2 shots at 100 yards off a bench once a year to check zero, you'll almost certainly be surprised.
If the only time you shoot at paper is 2 shots at 100 yards off a bench once a year to check zero, you'll almost certainly be surprised.
Posted on 10/14/24 at 9:14 am to saintsfan1977
quote:
No. They cripple deer because they using the wrong bullet and/or shot placement. A 3inch group at 100 yds is easily capable of killing a deer. Nobody misses because of 3 inches when the vitals are at least 6 to 10 inches.
The biggest factor in shooting is the person behind the trigger.
Correct the biggest factor is the person. But if you have a 6 inch group you shouldn't be taking shots at deer with that gun. It is not like there is some magic that happens when you shoot at a deer and the bullet has to choose between either operator error or gun. WHY NOT BOTH.
If you gun shoots a 3 inch group at 100 then it will be 6 at 200. So a bullet hitting 6 inches off is not a good recipe for a clean kill and if shooting at a deer is not shooting from a sled. So the bullet is likely not even going to hit within the 6 inch circle.
You say people are the problem and then fail to think that compounding that problem with a inaccurate gun isn't an issue.
Posted on 10/14/24 at 9:35 am to omegaman66
I think that with a rifle, as much as a 12" group at 100 yards would result in a dead deer more often than not. Rifles give you tremendous margin for error with deer. I wouldn't be surprised if a whole lot of people are actually shooting groups like that out of their favorite stands.
When people first started using scoped rifles at our camp, prevailing theory was if it could hit a paper plate every shot at 100 yards it was plenty good enough to kill deer every shot and it seems they were at least mostly correct.
Shooting 10 shot groups from field positions is extremely humbling and I suggest everyone do it every now and then. Don't freak out and sell the rifle, just learn what kind of groups you are really shooting in the field, and adjust your maximum range and expectations accordingly.
When people first started using scoped rifles at our camp, prevailing theory was if it could hit a paper plate every shot at 100 yards it was plenty good enough to kill deer every shot and it seems they were at least mostly correct.
Shooting 10 shot groups from field positions is extremely humbling and I suggest everyone do it every now and then. Don't freak out and sell the rifle, just learn what kind of groups you are really shooting in the field, and adjust your maximum range and expectations accordingly.
Posted on 10/14/24 at 9:39 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
This is good stuff. I think 95% of the “MOA all day” rifles people post about online are nowhere close. And I think only 1/1000 of those are MOA all day in the field.
Posted on 10/14/24 at 9:57 am to turkish
quote:
think 95% of the “MOA all day” rifles people post about online are nowhere close.
Absolutely. When somebody adds "if i do my part" that's probably a 2 MOA rifle.
The groups too small podcast episode really rearranged my circuits when it comes to rifles. They are EXACTLY right and the frustration I've experienced over the years are easily explained by simple statistics.
When you think about what size groups you can really expect from your rifle, what your accuracy is like from field positions, and what the kill zone of the game you are shooting is, you can arrive at a very realistic actual maximum effective range of your hunting system (the man, the rifle, and the ammo).
What you'll probably find is it's exactly what you thought it was, except the man and rifle shoot far worse than you thought they did, and laser precision is not necessary at all for killing a 200 pound whitetail dead as a doorknob with a centerfire rifle.
Posted on 10/14/24 at 11:22 am to DownshiftAndFloorIt
quote:
Shooting 10 shot groups from field positions is extremely humbling and I suggest everyone do it every now and then.
yep. I like this drill a lot. (zip link in the thread still works for targets, just print 8.5x11 with no scaling to use at 100 yards). I like to do it how I'll be set up in a close to worst case - bino harness/pack on, scope covers closed no round in the chamber, run a bit to get heart rate up, etc. Drill says "off sticks" for the third scenario but use whatever support is realistic for you. I usually run some rounds with a backpack for support and some with a tall bipod. Taught me very quickly that for the super light rifles I like to hunt with I need to practice getting support of some sort under them in a hurry as they are very difficult to shoot offhand.
LINK
edit: I also like to load up a bunch of low recoil rounds so I can run this drill on repeat
This post was edited on 10/14/24 at 11:25 am
Posted on 10/14/24 at 2:29 pm to omegaman66
quote:
You say people are the problem and then fail to think that compounding that problem with a inaccurate gun isn't an issue.
If that gun shoots 3moa all day and the person is proficient with said rifle , dead deer at 200yds all day. But I don't condone anyone shoot with a rifle that's grouping 3moa or more.
Here's the truth. If you took an actual half minute gun and gave it to 10 world class shooters I'd bet they have a 1/10 chance of winning. The gun is constant. The people are the deciding factor in who wins.
It's like the people that precision handload. You have to be able to see the difference in 0.10 to 0.4 inches in groups. Most people can't and I'll admit I probably can't, so my handloading doesn't consist of tuning seating length and different measures of powder. I think it's a waste of time and money.
Pick a bullet, a case, a primer and powder. Load it to book max and half to full grain below to find pressure. Once you see an extraction mark back it down half a grain and shoot 10 rds. If it groups in an inch you're done.
Posted on 10/14/24 at 4:56 pm to saintsfan1977
rifle of choice is a browning A bolt with Leopold scope in 7 mm mag.
at the range first two shots are right on at 100 yards
third shot is inches to the right.
I flinch do to recoil and with third shot start drifting right
But the good news, one shot equals one kill, and I do not worry about flinching when in the deer stand
at the range first two shots are right on at 100 yards
third shot is inches to the right.
I flinch do to recoil and with third shot start drifting right
But the good news, one shot equals one kill, and I do not worry about flinching when in the deer stand
Posted on 10/14/24 at 5:08 pm to Trevaylin
quote:
rifle of choice is a browning A bolt with Leopold scope in 7 mm mag.
at the range first two shots are right on at 100 yards
third shot is inches to the right.
I flinch do to recoil and with third shot start drifting right
I'd say just just shoot 2. Next time you go back shoot another 2. And so on. You'd have a group of plenty of shots that show the actual group you can achieve. Like you said it's the first shot that counts anyways.
Posted on 10/14/24 at 5:20 pm to saintsfan1977
Careful. I’m working with a 308 load right now that might grenade my rifle if I started that close to the max. Chrono is showing signs of pressure 40% of the way between min and max, about 3 grains below max.
Posted on 10/14/24 at 5:28 pm to turkish
quote:
Careful. I’m working with a 308 load right now that might grenade my rifle if I started that close to the max. Chrono is showing signs of pressure 40% of the way between min and max, about 3 grains below max
7.62 cases? I don't believe this is a bolt gun.
I have always started 1.5gr below max. No max charge would ever come close to blowing up any rifle I owned. There's a safety factor built in in loading manuals.
3gr below max and you are seeing pressure? What kind of pressure? Velocity? There's something not right. 16in barrel or what? You're leaving out details because if your 308 bolt gun has been neutered to half the powder charges I'd buy a new gun.
This post was edited on 10/14/24 at 5:40 pm
Posted on 10/14/24 at 7:05 pm to saintsfan1977
Little over 48gr of Tac is making nearly 3k fps. But that last powder charge increment was a really sharp jump in velocity across 2 range trips. This is with 130gr TTSX in a 17” bbl. Powder is compressed at just over 47gr, which is much lower than I expected.
ETA: bullets not close to lands with this crappy short Tikka mag and long azz throat
ETA: bullets not close to lands with this crappy short Tikka mag and long azz throat
This post was edited on 10/14/24 at 7:10 pm
Posted on 10/14/24 at 8:30 pm to turkish
quote:
Chrono is showing signs of pressure 40% of the way between min and max,
But does the brass show pressure signs?
Posted on 10/14/24 at 8:48 pm to civiltiger07
No. Chrono is. Thats enough for me. Others may push further. There’s no way I’d feel safe getting within half a grain of Barnes max with this brass, that’s all I meant.
This post was edited on 10/14/24 at 8:51 pm
Posted on 10/14/24 at 8:56 pm to turkish
quote:
No. Chrono is. Thats enough for me
Ahh so how do you know the chrono isn't lying? The rifle supposed to tell you when you've reached pressure. In other words the headstamp.
Posted on 10/14/24 at 9:23 pm to saintsfan1977
Man, I’ve read that relying on cases for pressure signs can be iffy too. I don’t know. Bolt’s sticky.
I don’t think I could seat a bullet with the max charge. Have you used Alpha brass before?
I don’t think I could seat a bullet with the max charge. Have you used Alpha brass before?
This post was edited on 10/14/24 at 9:24 pm
Posted on 10/14/24 at 9:27 pm to turkish
quote:
Bolt’s sticky.
Definitely pressure.
quote:
Have you used Alpha brass before?
No. I use Peterson but I do believe Alpha has thicker brass than most which limits case capacity. From what I understand Alpha is on par with Lapua though.
This post was edited on 10/14/24 at 9:28 pm
Posted on 10/14/24 at 9:40 pm to turkish
You need to call Alpha and ask them. Something’s up. You should not be compressing power at 47 with 130.
Max according to Barnes is 51.2 which is a compressed load.
You may want to do a water test to see how much capacity the case actually has.
Max according to Barnes is 51.2 which is a compressed load.
You may want to do a water test to see how much capacity the case actually has.
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