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My experience shooting 600 yards at the Talladega CMP (long)

Posted on 10/23/17 at 11:06 am
Posted by DeoreDX
Member since Oct 2010
4053 posts
Posted on 10/23/17 at 11:06 am
Old man and I went up to the Talladega Civilian Marksmanship park for a 2 day Project Appleseed Known distance event. The CMP in Talladega is the most advanced rifle range in the US if not the world. Can't say enough good things about it. I've mentioned project Appleseed on here before and strongly suggest anyone who wants to be a better marksman to attend their events. The "normal" Appleseed event goes over the standing, sitting, and prone shooting positions and is shot at 25 meters on scaled down targets simulating shooting at 100, 200, 300, and 400 yards. All shooting is unsupported using only you, a sling, and your rifle. No bipods, benches, shooting sticks, grip pods, etc.

The known distance or "KD" events are shot at full distances on full sized silhouettes. The KD events assume you have mastered the shooting positions and instead you go into depths about bullet trajectory, wind and environmental effects, different methods of setting up your rifle to shoot at different ranges, etc. I would say 1/3 of the time is spent in the classroom, 1/6th of the time is spent gathering ballistics data establishing your battle field zero or figuring out the come ups/downs at various distances. The rest of the time is spent shooting the AQT which is the Appleseed qualification test which is based on the Army qualification test. The 25m events have scoring rings on the silhouettes but the KD events only count hits. So in effect the 3 ring disappears on the 25m targets and only 4's and 5's count. You have to get 40/50 hits to qualify as a long range rifleman and get your long range rocker.

Spoiler alert, I earned my rocker



My equipment. My cheapest AR I own which is my 16" carbine built on an 80% lower with a BCA stainless barrel barrel fre floated with a Bushnell 1-4x24 scope. Built it for less than $500 (with optic) about 3 years ago. I did add the LaRue MBT S2 and a Indian Creek Designs blast forward device. The BFD mount installs under a muzzle brake and allows you to screw on a flash can if you are at a range and don't want to piss off your neighbors. Shooting Wolf Gold 55gr 223.

Day 1 was spend on Range 2 which is the 100 yard range. We shot sighters and established our zeros. We shot stage 1 of the AQT 6 times that day since Range 1 doesn't have a 100 yard line. Stage 1 is 10 shots from a standing position in under 2 minutes. 8-9-10-10-10-9 were my 6 scores going into day 2.

100 yard range.


Day 2 was spent on Range 1. At the Talladega CMP Range 1 is set up for 200, 300, and 600 yards with electronic scoring so you can't fire at 400 yards and you don't fire at silhouettes. 200 yard target is shot from a sitting of kneeling position with a mandatory magazine change in the middle of the string of fire. You have 55 seconds to transition from standing to sitting, load your magazine, fire 2 shots, drop your magazine and fire 8 more shots. I have a really solid sitting position and I can make fast mag changes with my AR so for me this was the easiest course of fire. I know many other struggle with this one but for me this was the easiest. I scored perfect on stage 2 every time. Requirement was 7.5 or above counts as a hit.



Stage 3 shot at 300 yards with a transition from standing to prone, 10 shots with a magazine change in under 1:05. A lot of people run out of time on stages 2 and 3. I always seemed to rush at the end and would miss one of my last 2 shots. Need to be inside 7.5 to count as a hit.
Consistently 9 on this course of fire with one very notable exception which I will mention later.

Since there is no 400 yard line stage 4 is shot at either 300 yards with reduced sized targets or 600 yards. With 6 AQTs, the AQTs were split half and half. First 3 were shot at 300 yards with only 9 ring or above counting as hits. On the 600 yard target 7.5 or above counts as hits. Hits count double on stage 4. 10 shots for a total of 20 points.

First completed AQT I missed qualifying by 1 point. Starting off with an 8 on standing I went 10-9 on 2 and 3. I needed 7 hits to qualify and I got 6 :(

2nd AQT I started with a 9 on stage one. I was feeling good after my 10 on sitting going into the 300 yard target. Then disaster happened, I forgot to dial in my come-ups on my scope after moving from 200 to 300 yards. I was shooting 8 mils low (2.75MOA) and only scored 4/10. Fuq. Didn't think I had any chance to qualify on this AQT as I had to be near perfect on stage 4 which has never been kind to me. Then I did the unthinkable and pulled off a nearly perfect stage 4 with 9/10 hits with my lone miss being a 8.9. Added up to 41 and I earned my first Long range rocker.



Shot a 39 on the next AQT after going into stage 4 with 29 points. Had a great chance to pull off a high score and really futzed up the final stage with just 5 hits.

After that we moved out to 600 yards. I've never shot past around 150 yards and had no idea how the little 55gr Wolf Gold pill would do at this range.

First sighter group was off to the right.



Going from 100-300 I had to dial in a little leftward correction. I thought that was wind effects since it was windy on Sunday and not so on Saturday. It turns out my scope wasn't perfectly level. I had dialed in .3 mils of windage at 300 yards and turned into 2.4moa = ~14.5" miss to the right because my scope wasn't perfectly level.

First sighter group circled in red and me chasing my tail.



Next sighter group was much better and I left it along after that. Going from 300 to 600 was 3 mils (30 clicks at .1mil/click) up in elevation and 7 to the left for my unlevel scope for my rifle and ammo combination.



My best score of the day was a 45 (10-10-9-8) with this 8/10 group at 600 yards. The 8 ring is 24" in diameter at 600 yards. It's amazing to think with a cheap rifle shooting cheap ammo with no support other than a sling and just 4x magnification I was able to put 8 shots in that circle. I've never gotten below about 3-3.5" 10-20 shot groups out of Wolf Gold with my rifle shooting from a bench so I think I've maximized the potential of my rifle/ammo combo. Next KD I go to I'm going to want to try better ammo and fix (possibly upgrade) my scope.

This post was edited on 10/23/17 at 11:15 am
Posted by rattlebucket
SELA
Member since Feb 2009
11420 posts
Posted on 10/23/17 at 11:37 am to
Last weekend at Talladega the race their awesome mayor, jerry cooper, spoke about the world class gun range that Talladega has.

Dude was awesome and sounded like he was very proud of the gun range. I see why.
Posted by DeoreDX
Member since Oct 2010
4053 posts
Posted on 10/23/17 at 11:40 am to
Forgot to add a picture of Range 1. Shooting at 200-300-600 yards without having to dick around and walk down range to adjust/move targets or bother with an expensive spotting scope just to see holes at 600 yards. You quickly become spoiled and can do a lot more shooting in a short amount of time compared to a normal paper target type range.

Posted by TU Rob
Birmingham
Member since Nov 2008
12726 posts
Posted on 10/23/17 at 11:42 am to
quote:

Dude was awesome and sounded like he was very proud of the gun range. I see why.


Everyone I know that has made the trip to shoot has said the same. Worth the drive if you are into long range shooting.
Posted by AubieALUMdvm
Member since Oct 2011
11713 posts
Posted on 10/23/17 at 2:47 pm to
How do the electronic targets work?
Posted by Aubie Spr96
lolwut?
Member since Dec 2009
41059 posts
Posted on 10/23/17 at 3:39 pm to
My cousin runs the place. World class shooting range for sure. Definitely worth a trip for those that have an opportunity.
Posted by DeoreDX
Member since Oct 2010
4053 posts
Posted on 10/23/17 at 3:54 pm to
quote:

How do the electronic targets work?


The target has microphones in each corner and by measuring the delay between when each micrphone picks up the sound of the bullet passing through the target it can calculate with accuracy where the bullet passes through the target.

LINK
Posted by Cajun367
S. Louisiana
Member since Oct 2017
1927 posts
Posted on 10/23/17 at 4:30 pm to
That's very cool.
Posted by Yewkindewit
Near Birmingham, Alabama
Member since Apr 2012
20013 posts
Posted on 10/23/17 at 6:09 pm to
Thanks for that terrific narrative!
Posted by nolaks
Member since Dec 2013
1130 posts
Posted on 10/24/17 at 8:42 am to
600 yards unsupported with a 223, you are a beast
Posted by auggie
Opelika, Alabama
Member since Aug 2013
27798 posts
Posted on 10/24/17 at 12:17 pm to
I live about 20 minutes away,and haven't gone yet.
Have seen you posting on here about it,and was meaning to ask about the set-up and stuff.

Good for you doing the Appleseed stuff,and learning through a method,that teaches undeniable techniques.

Myself however,I'm kind of older probably.
Can I just shoot off of a bench with a sandbag if I want?
Posted by DeoreDX
Member since Oct 2010
4053 posts
Posted on 10/24/17 at 12:59 pm to
quote:


Myself however,I'm kind of older probably.
Can I just shoot off of a bench with a sandbag if I want?


You go there. Watch a 30 minute safety video. Pay a range fee. Go to the range and start shooting. The range has benches, chair, and even a nice rubberized shooting block if you forgot your sand bags. To shoot out to 600 yards you have to show that you can hit the black of the previous ranges. I don't know if you start on the 100 yard range then move over to the 200. But I know to go from 200-300 you have to show you can hit at too. Then to move from 300-600 you have to show you can hit at 300 first.
Posted by auggie
Opelika, Alabama
Member since Aug 2013
27798 posts
Posted on 10/24/17 at 1:18 pm to
Oh, I am fine with that,as long as I can shoot like I want.

The USMC said I a was an expert,would be nice to know if I still have it,and can I apply it to different weapons?

When I was in,400 meters was our max.
Posted by HDAU
Member since Nov 2014
1569 posts
Posted on 10/24/17 at 1:21 pm to
They have a pretty fun clays course too!
Posted by LSUfreak1459
Member since Feb 2008
836 posts
Posted on 10/24/17 at 1:33 pm to
I'm really interested in this. I saw there's an event in Amite on Nov. 18th. I want to go after hunting season. Can you give me a run down of what exactly it is?
Posted by DeoreDX
Member since Oct 2010
4053 posts
Posted on 10/24/17 at 2:43 pm to
quote:

Can you give me a run down of what exactly it is?


There are two types of Project Appleseed events. The first one you will go to will be a 25 meter event. The second is a "KD" or "Known Distance" event is what I described above.

At a 25m event they will teach you the fundamentals of 3 position shooting. That is standing, sitting/kneeling, and prone. You will need a GI style sling because the sling is fundamental to the positions they will teach you to shoot from. The goal is to find your NPOA (Natural Point of aim) which is there the rifle will be pointed when your completely relax and only use your bone structure to support the rifle and not your muscles. Muscling the rifle leads to inaccuracy and if you learn to find your natural point of aim and learn how to adjust your natural point of aim you will soon become a better shot. They teach the 6 steps of firing a shot.

1 Sight alignment
2 Sight picture
3 Respiratory Pause
4 Focus
5 trigger squeeze
6 follow through

In the 3 positions they will teach you the proper use of the Hasty and Loop sling techniques which will help a shooter stabilize the rifle in the various shooting positions so the rifleman can quickly and accurately fire a shot without the need of any other support device other than the sling. During the 25m event they also fill the breaks in with a little bit of American history talking about how the American Rifleman helped win the revolutionary war.

All the training leads up to the AQT (Appleseed Qualification Test) which is their version of the Army qualification test shot at 25 meters using reduced scale targets to simulate shooting at long distances. You normally shoot 4-5 of these during the course of a 2 day event.



Starting at the top is the largest target which is scaled to simulate a 100 yard shot and that is shot from a standing position in 2 minutes.

Second line is stage 2 which simulated a 200 yard shot and much be shot in 55 seconds with a mandatory magazine change. You start from a standing position and transition to a sitting position, load your magazine, fire two shots at the first target. Change magazines, fire 3 more shots at the first target. You must then transition to the 2nd target and fire 5 more shots. If you don't shoot the correct number of shots at each target that will count against your total.

3rd line simulates a 300 yard shot shot from the prone position with a mandatory magazine change. Again you start standing, transition to prone, load your magazine fire two shots at the first target. Make your magazine change and fire one more shot into the first target. You adjust your point of aim and fire 3 more into the 2nd target, adjust your position and fire 4 into the last target.

4th line is the slow fire from the prone position, no magazine change. You have 5 minutes for this course of fire. 2-2-3-3 is the shot counts per target. The target black is around 1.5" wide.

If you score 210 or above you earn your rifleman patch.
They say average is 3 Appleseeds before most people earn their patch. I screwed up the shot count in my first Appleseed which cost me my patch and a 205 score instead of a 213. It's rare to earn the patch on your first event unless you are already an acomplished and practiced 3 position shooter. I got mine on my second but I did a lot of dry fire practice at home between the first and 2nd events. Learning how to shoot the AQT helps as well as the 2nd and 3rd stages are fast paced and it's easy to screw up your shot count.

A lot of the local high power competition shooters attend the local events at the CMP as it's good practice and reminders on the fundamentals. Apparently Appleseed is sort of a gateway drug for local high power shooting. I have to admit after starting the 3 position shooting I find this style of shooting a lot more rewarding than drilling a bullet through the same hole on a paper target from a bench.
This post was edited on 10/24/17 at 2:45 pm
Posted by LSUfreak1459
Member since Feb 2008
836 posts
Posted on 10/24/17 at 3:31 pm to
Thanks for the info.
What optic you shoot at the 25 meter event with? Is it no magnification? You used your 223/556 for both events?
Posted by DeoreDX
Member since Oct 2010
4053 posts
Posted on 10/24/17 at 3:49 pm to
quote:

hanks for the info.
What optic you shoot at the 25 meter event with? Is it no magnification? You used your 223/556 for both events?


I used a Ruger 10/22. 22's are popular in 25m events because they are cheap to operate. 10/22's and Marlin 795's are the two most common you will see on the line.

Appleseed has a suggested rifle they call the "Liberty Training rifle" which is a basic 10/22 or 795 with Tech Sights. The Tech Sights are fully adjustable peep sights that fit on the 795 or 10/22. They also suggest a cheek riser to get your eye on the proper position.

This is my version of the LTR.



This is the rifle I shot Rifleman with. It's my Ruger Charger I put a ER Shaw barrel on and a cheap stock from CWP with a Weaver RV7 scope. You don't need a lot of magnification. Magnification will actually hurt you as most shooters will tend to try to muscle the shot when they are using a really high magnification optic. IMHO 4x-5x is just about perfect amount of magnification for Appleseed. I went with a scope because I had a hard time seeing the little 1.5" target at 25m with irons. I could totally rock out the 1st 3 stages of the AQT with just the irons but I lost all my points on stage 3 because I just couldn't see the target well enough. Scopes are difficult because most people have scopes set way too far backwards for prone position shooting. If you want to do it with a scope I highly suggest getting into a prone position and get your scope set so it is usable in the prone position. I couldn't get a normal scope far enough forward on my 10/22 without a offset rail to give me more space to move the optic forward.

Posted by LSUfreak1459
Member since Feb 2008
836 posts
Posted on 10/24/17 at 7:54 pm to
Appreciate all the info! I’m excited about this. I will be going to an event after hunting season for sure.
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