re: Why do people think electric cars are somehow better for the environment?

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The issue is batteries of different capacity or chemistry. If the battery capacity increases then you'll need a bigger charger (read: more current) to charge it as quickly as a lower capacity battery. If using batteries that can accept charge at a faster rate you still need a bigger charger.

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Are you still talking about this? Everyone knows this, and I don't see anyone arguing otherwise.

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Now imagine if you wanted to charge in the same time it takes to fill up an empty tank of gasoline, vastly different requirement.

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Yes the requirements are vastly different, but YOU are the only one talking about doing that. Everyone else, including several EV owners in this thread, understands that the tradeoff to not being able to go from empty to full in a few minutes is that you rarely, if ever, have to drive somewhere to fuel your car to begin with. It happens at home, cheaply and automatically. And even if you drive 4X the national average every single day, the car will be fully charged every morning without any upgrades to the typical home's electric service.


Your argument boils down to "but I can't take a road trip in an EV!" So rent a fricking van, you dolt!

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Are you still talking about this? Everyone knows this, and I don't see anyone arguing otherwise.

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Yes we are numbnuts, because if you imagine we are going to be migrating away from ICE vehicles in any significant volume in the next few decades, people will need to make significant investments in their existing homes to charge these vehicles. And the bigger the batteries and the faster the charging desired, the more expensive it gets.

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Everyone else, including several EV owners in this thread, understands that the tradeoff to not being able to go from empty to full in a few minutes is that you rarely, if ever, have to drive somewhere to fuel your car to begin with. It happens at home, cheaply and automatically. And even if you drive 4X the national average every single day, the car will be fully charged every morning without any upgrades to the typical home's electric service.

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Yeah, I know you and your fellow fart-sniffers love to project YOUR experiences and poor math skills on everyone else. News flash shite-for-brains, not everyone has low-grade vehicle requirements like you. I have two trucks because I use them for work and my hobbies. I drive WAY above the national average, not some dinky little morning commute like you. I make monthly trips that are beyond the range of anything Tesla offers and there sure as hell no supercharging stations along the way. EV's appeal to only a relatively small portion of the population, that's why every prediction of their market penetration has come up dismally short in the last 10 years. People nobody likes at the bar: vegans, cyclists, and EV owners.

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It's conservative because your are using the best range average for a EV. During the winter, that EV is going to lose about 40% of it's range (battery chemistry, heater usage). During the Summer, it's going to lose 10 - 17% of it's range (A/C, battery cooling fans). Your numbers figure about 4 full charges per month but for most of the year, in all but the most temperate climates, it's about 5 - 7 charges per month. Your physics classes discounted the mass of rope and the friction of pulleys, mine didn't.

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You really don't understand. First range has NOTHING to do with the calculations kWh per mile is the salient figure. I increased that by roughly 10% to be more in line with real averages. The amount of power needed was based on 2 cars for every household charged each 24 hour period based on the average miles per year cars are driven. Very cold temps do drop efficiency BUT you have to look at the whole country for a whole year to get averages, the winter impact will be only a few percent (I built in 10%) on the whole conutry average. It is true there will be more demand in cold climates during cold weather but the nighttime demand there is much lower.

Again, this is an entire country average and may push some limited infrastructure during very cold weather but the full country average will still be about 30%, again that is just compared to residential demand, so a much lower figure on the whole.

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Nobody outside of an industrial shop is buying 1K spools. I was at HD yesterday and it's $2.84/foot for 8/3 NM-B before tax. My numbers are VASTLY better than yours. Go buy a calculator and try again.

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HD $1.84 by the foot for 8/3 NM

Looks like HD was charging you the $1 a foot "my calculator is busted" tax. I was responding to your mention of spool prices " and a spool is still $2+/foot.". What decent sized residential electrical business doesn't buy 8/3 by the spool? In any case when retrofitting outlets for EVs becomes big business I expect even the small guys to buy 8/3 or more likely 6/3 in bulk. The wire just won't be a significant expense, some retrofits will be easy some will be a pain depending on the physical run between the load center and garage.


I would note my numbers are based on available larger EV sedans. This number will obviously tilt up for SUVs and pickups and one could extrapolate the kWH per mile numbers from gas/diesel mileage numbers to come up with a more accurate long term full fleet conversion number, however, I still feel the number will be easily absorbed considering the time the majority of charging occurs along with efficiency increases and the fact the 30% figure is still based on residential demand alone, there is also a huge drop in commercial power needs at night.

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You really don't understand.

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You're projecting again.

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First range has NOTHING to do with the calculations kWh per mile is the salient figure. I increased that by roughly 10% to be more in line with real averages. The amount of power needed was based on 2 cars for every household charged each 24 hour period based on the average miles per year cars are driven. Very cold temps do drop efficiency BUT you have to look at the whole country for a whole year to get averages, the winter impact will be only a few percent (I built in 10%) on the whole conutry average. It is true there will be more demand in cold climates during cold weather but the nighttime demand there is much lower.

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Range/kWh per mile...doesn't matter it's all about the power requirements and your numbers fall drastically short of the real world. Real world EV's aren't as efficient as your "built-in" numbers. Winter impact is NOT a few percent. The cabin heater alone requires as much as 10% of the battery capacity while running, the battery pack itself requires heat, the battery will not provide it's full rated capacity, icy roads will even cause some impact. For a full half of the year, Winter or Summer and in most of the continental US, it's going to take more kWh/mile than you have figured. EV's are fair weather vehicles as far as current technology is concerned, figure that into your napkin calculations. Also, if millions of people start plugging in devices that require 7 - 9 kW per hour to charge every night, your idea about nighttime demand being lower goes out the window. People that work in this sector know that the problems you write off don't have easy solutions.

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Looks like HD was charging you the $1 a foot "my calculator is busted" tax.

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Looks like your don't know that their website is wrong and the actual tag in the actual store by the actual spool of wire they have on the rack doesn't reflect that price. Take your happy arse into HD and look for yourself.

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In any case when retrofitting outlets for EVs becomes big business I expect even the small guys to buy 8/3 or more likely 6/3 in bulk. The wire just won't be a significant expense, some retrofits will be easy some will be a pain depending on the physical run between the load center and garage.

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Prices are just going to increase with demand. I don't see it becoming a big business for EV charging retrofits any time soon, it will be optioned into new homes depending on the buyers/builders but a lot of older homes will need new or additional load centers for any kind of retrofit and the costs get into the thousands quickly. EV's are going to be niche market vehicles for a long time to come. Hybrids are much better and will probably be the overall winner until technologies coalesce into something entirely new, well beyond the time anyone currently alive will see.

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We're still in the early stages of exploring this path. I think many can see how in the long term this will be better for the environment and we're all baking on the idea that it could be and investing in this thought process.

So currently it may not be better but in the long run we hope that it will be.

No doubt. Until renewable energy is made much more efficient there is no better environment solution.

Natural gas is cleaner than coal which is a popular option now for plants.

Nuclear is the best option, but a ton of nuclear plants obviously has its risks as well.

I’m not sure why we don’t make more natural gas or butane cars. It’s cleaner burning than gas/diesel. We used to have a couple old Chevy Scottsdale 2500 flatbed pickups on the farm that ran off butane. Couldn’t tell a difference other than it was a pain in the arse to fill up the tank but I’m sure an easier way could be made.

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I’m not sure why we don’t make more natural gas or butane cars. It’s cleaner burning than gas/diesel. We used to have a couple old Chevy Scottsdale 2500 flatbed pickups on the farm that ran off butane. Couldn’t tell a difference other than it was a pain in the arse to fill up the tank but I’m sure an easier way could be made.

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CNG vehicles have similar paint points as EV's, but fewer advantages.

Refueling at home takes all night, and there are few filling stations around the country. Not all places have natural gas infrastructure, so that would require a huge investment. And it's still an ICE, so you still get all the maintenance costs associated with those.