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Posted on 7/24/23 at 8:11 am to NYNolaguy1
quote:
Fun story, Truman didn't authorize the bomb on Japan and only found out after the fact.
Wat
Posted on 7/24/23 at 8:40 am to Hateradedrink
I think we can all agree that the justification for dropping the A-bombs on Japan can best be summarized by the words of a wise philosopher:
"Don't start no shite, won't be no shite"
"Don't start no shite, won't be no shite"
Posted on 7/24/23 at 11:21 am to lz2112
quote:
Or are you just one of those "look at me, I'm provocative" douche bags.
He’s an Edge lord
Posted on 7/24/23 at 11:23 am to brmark70816
quote:
You demand they surrender and claim victory. If they starve, that is on them. You give them options
Yea that would have worked lol
What do you do when they say “nah”
Posted on 7/24/23 at 11:38 am to Mo Jeaux
Mo Jeaux: “war crime”
Geauxtigers: “do you know the definition of a war crime?”
Mo Jeaux: “no”
Lol. What a clown
Geauxtigers: “do you know the definition of a war crime?”
Mo Jeaux: “no”
Lol. What a clown
Posted on 7/24/23 at 12:19 pm to The Egg
Why the Japs should be glad that we nuked them:
1.) Most have heard about the one million casualty rate for Allied forces. What about Japanese casualties? An invasion of mainland Japan would have resulted in one Stalingrad after another. Millions - perhaps tens of millions - of Japanese civilians would have been killed either by combat action or by unsanitary conditions/starvation in destroyed cities.
2.) Japan would not have become the economic technological powerhouse that it did become. An invasion of mainland Japan would have razed everything. They would still be an agricultural society if that had happened.
3.) Half of Japan would have ended up communist. An invasion of mainland Japan would have involved the Soviet Union, and Japan would have ended up partitioned like Korea and Germany, resulting in a good chunk of the country becoming communist.
1.) Most have heard about the one million casualty rate for Allied forces. What about Japanese casualties? An invasion of mainland Japan would have resulted in one Stalingrad after another. Millions - perhaps tens of millions - of Japanese civilians would have been killed either by combat action or by unsanitary conditions/starvation in destroyed cities.
2.) Japan would not have become the economic technological powerhouse that it did become. An invasion of mainland Japan would have razed everything. They would still be an agricultural society if that had happened.
3.) Half of Japan would have ended up communist. An invasion of mainland Japan would have involved the Soviet Union, and Japan would have ended up partitioned like Korea and Germany, resulting in a good chunk of the country becoming communist.
Posted on 7/24/23 at 12:27 pm to brmark70816
quote:
I just don't see any reason to conduct those type of operations.
quote:
That is F'd up. Why not take him out? We made every effort to kill Hitler.
You’re really clueless about global politics back them
Posted on 7/24/23 at 2:35 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
There actually were three options:
1. use the atomic bomb
2. Invasion
3. Continued conventional bombing and blockade
Options two and three would have resulted in (1) prolonging the war up to another year, possibly more, and (2) Japanese death tolls that dwarfed those lost on the atomic strikes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Option two would also come with an estimated one million American casualties while option three would result in perhaps thousands of American casualties.
This. Bushido was still alive and well within the Japanese military, and unconditional surrender of their divine emperor was unthinkable. They would have let their population starve or die in droves against invasion if they thought they could outlast the Allies.
Posted on 7/24/23 at 2:40 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
In fairness, by the beginning of 1945 we controlled the seas around the islands of Japan. Our submarines had so devastated their merchant fleet that we were starting to go after smaller targets because all of their larger commercial vessels were at the bottom of the ocean.
Starving them out would have been worse than bombing them because the symptoms of starvation are brutal and last for days or even weeks before finally being overtaken by death.
100%. They were lucky to be able to even fish their coasts. Continued fire bombing would have ruined agriculture. The sad part, is Japan would have allowed it if they thought the Allies would eventually cave.
Posted on 7/24/23 at 2:41 pm to Mo Jeaux
quote:
A war crime.
Posted on 7/24/23 at 2:51 pm to TheFonz
quote:
1.) Most have heard about the one million casualty rate for Allied forces. What about Japanese casualties? An invasion of mainland Japan would have resulted in one Stalingrad after another. Millions - perhaps tens of millions - of Japanese civilians would have been killed either by combat action or by unsanitary conditions/starvation in destroyed cities.
If we look at other invasions where there were large numbers of Japanese civilians, we can get an idea of how many would die in an invasion of the Japanese home islands. Thankfully, we have two great examples, Saipan and Okinawa.
Saipan:
American deaths: 3,200
Japanese Civilian deaths: 8,000
Japanese military deaths: 25,000
Total Japanese deaths: 33,000
So, roughly for every one American who died on Saipan, 10 Japanese died
Okinawa
American deaths: 12,500
Japanese civilian deaths: 40K - 150K (est)
Japanese military deaths: 78,000
Total Japanese deaths: up to 128,000
So again, roughly 10:1 ratio.
Planners estimated American casualties of one million and deaths somewhere around 350,000 from Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan. So, using the lessons from Saipan and Okinawa, roughly 3.5 million Japanese could be expected to die.
Posted on 7/24/23 at 2:59 pm to Damone
quote:
France won WWI on the battlefield and Russia won WWII
France and Britain took the brunt of fighting on the Western Front in WWI, this is true. Once Russia was out of the fight, American troops were vital to defending against the German Spring Offensive in 1918. American economic aid was also vital.
Russia most definitely bled Germany the most, but let's not get carried away with them completely. Stalin purged his officer corps and nearly caused the entire collapse of his armies by not pulling them back from the frontiers when it was obvious Germany was going to invade. Tens of millions of soldiers were killed or captured along with millions of civilians. America contributed significantly to their eventual turn around with massive shipments of food stuffs, steel rails, locomotives, rolling stock, and 4-wheel drive transport trucks.
America did the majority of the work in the Pacific while contributing significantly to the battle for the Atlantic, the Mediterranean theatre and eventually Western Europe. Don't know why you're underselling the contributions of the USA.
Posted on 7/24/23 at 3:14 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
I can’t remember the exact number of bombs we had left after the first two, but it wasn’t many. It may have been like one or maybe two?
The original strategy of bombing Japan til surrender was to let them & everyone else know that we weren’t bluffing about having a stockpile while also bringing a prompt end to the war.
If you’ve ever wondered why phatty/Nagasaki is always at the center of the ethics debates but then somehow almost everyone seems to agree that little boy was the right call… this (and Soviet invasion of japan between bombs) is the reason.
In any case, we definitely were not bluffing about having a stockpile lol.
This post was edited on 7/24/23 at 3:17 pm
Posted on 7/24/23 at 3:19 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
can’t remember the exact number of bombs we had left after the first two, but it wasn’t many. It may have been like one or maybe two?
I'm curious about the downvotes...
There was one additional bomb nearing completion and ready for transport in about two weeks. Japan threw in the towel on 8/15, making it unnecessary. Undoubtedly, there were more in the pipeline as production continued. But it wasn't like we had enough fissile material to bomb Japan every three days for the rest of August.
Posted on 7/24/23 at 3:37 pm to White Roach
quote:
I'm curious about the downvotes...
I have a fan who follows me around downvoting literally everything I post, oftentimes within seconds of the post. Doesn’t matter what it is. It makes me happy to know there is someone out there this bothered by me.
quote:
There was one additional bomb nearing completion and ready for transport in about two weeks. Japan threw in the towel on 8/15, making it unnecessary. Undoubtedly, there were more in the pipeline as production continued. But it wasn't like we had enough fissile material to bomb Japan every three days for the rest of August.
It’s been a long time, and I can’t remember where I read it, but there were plans for a slow, but sustained atomic bombing campaign of Japan to go on until they surrendered. I think the next bomb was scheduled to drop on Aug. 19 but Japan announced their acceptance of American calls to surrender on the 16th. I don’t know what target was selected.
Posted on 7/24/23 at 4:09 pm to RollTide1987
quote:
: Though we deliberately avoided targeting the imperial residence so that Hirohito could witness firsthand the suffering of his people.
I'll add that Kyoto, the ancient imperial city, was on the initial target list. The targets were selected for military value and for cities that had not previously been bombed, to better estimate what the atomic bombs were capable of.
One of Roosevelt's advisors, either Hopkins or Stimson, had lived in Kyoto in the '20s and implored Roosevelt to scratch it from the target list because of it's beauty and historical significance. He did.
Posted on 7/24/23 at 4:30 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
It’s been a long time, and I can’t remember where I read it, but there were plans for a slow, but sustained atomic bombing campaign of Japan to go on until they surrendered. I think the next bomb was scheduled to drop on Aug. 19 but Japan announced their acceptance of American calls to surrender on the 16th. I don’t know what target was selected.
Based on various books I've read, I think there was only one additional bomb nearing completion. I don't belive it had left the US yet. But however much plutonium (maybe enriched uranium, too) was being produced, we wouldn't have been able to drop another bomb every three days.
Posted on 7/24/23 at 4:32 pm to DeathByTossDive225
quote:
we definitely were not bluffing about having a stockpile lol.
I don't think so. We were cranking out fissile material as fast as we could. Forget the Trintiy test in mid-July, but we had two bombs, of dissimilar construction, ready and delivered to the 509th by early August. A third is was to be on Tinian by Aug 19 or shortly thereafter. Past that? No warehouse full of atomic bombs.
This post was edited on 7/24/23 at 4:40 pm
Posted on 7/24/23 at 5:37 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
Planners estimated American casualties of one million and deaths somewhere around 350,000 from Operation Downfall, the invasion of Japan. So, using the lessons from Saipan and Okinawa, roughly 3.5 million Japanese could be expected to die.
The bomb not only saved lives then, it saved lives ever since. Had the atomic bomb never been used we would have most certainly had large conventional wars between larger nation (US Russia for sure) and the death tolls and the course of history would have taken a darker path. The bomb had to be used in war so that everyone would see and never do it again. It was awful, but it had to be done.
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