re: The affect of the strategic Air War on the Eastern Front of WWII

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Eh. I'm not too positive on this. True, while the strategic air campaign launched from Britain by the Americans/British, I doubt that even had those units been pulled off the 88 (remember now, most of the AA in these large cities are manned not by the elite wer wehrmacht were the old, injured, children, they would have done much against the horde. Stalin was willing to let every man, woman, child, dog and cat die to defeat the Germans. This wasn't some humane front, it was a war of annihilation and the ruskies simply had too many men.

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It doesn't take an "elite warrior" to sight in and knock out a Soviet T-34 with an "88". In fact, it's quite easy. And keep in mind that thanks to superior German optics, those 88's would have been taking out T-34's before the T-34s could even see where the shots were coming from.

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Eh. Debatable. While they clearly didn't have the air superiority and resources as the luftwaffe, that doesn't mean they didn't have dedicated air units who reaked havoc on the Germans. See the grand Soviet winter counteroffensive in 1942 where the luftwaffe was grounded, yet the Soviet air force was out staffing and causing havoc. Then there are the all women units such as the night witches who struck fear into the Germans.

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The Soviets did have a massive air force. But it was a an almost purely tactical instrument of war with little to no strategic capability to speak of. Yes, something like an IL-2 is a devastating weapon on the battlefield. And the Soviets did have thousands of them. But just as the Stuka was no substitute for a strategic bomber during the Battle of Britain, the IL-2 would have been no substile later on either.

And keep in mind, as I've already said, the Soviets were already hard pressed to field what air force they had even though it was only a tactical force. And even with that the Soviets sill relied on the Western Allies for thousands of fighters, parts, and even the tires used on their planes landing gear. The Soviets simple did not have the resources to field any strategic force that was capable of having any real influence on the battlefield.

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Tl;Dr, this ultimately would end up being a false claim. While the Soviets would have lost several million more men, Hitler was fighting another extreme totalitarian style government. One which was more than willing to see every man, woman, child, and animal under his dominion DIE before giving into the Germans. Sans all else, in a one on one clash of the titans, I still see Russia overcoming. She's simply too vast, too populated, and too cruel to lose.

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Again, you're only thinking in a one dimensional manner and completely ignoring the vital role of logistics and industrial aspects of a modern "total war". Sure the Soviets had countless millions of men.

But what good does that do if you can't even feed those men or even provide all of them with weapons?

and how will they march on foot when you can't even provide enough leather to keep boots on their feet?

What good does tens of thousands of T-34's do when you can't transport fuel to the front to keep them moving?

The simple fact of WWI on the Eastern Front is that without Lend/Lease the Soviets Red Army would by mid-1942 at the latest have been an immobile, unorganized, starving mob of men dying barefoot in the snow while their artillery and tanks sat useless as giant paperweights due to lack of fuel and ammunition.

One interesting angle on this is the fact that neither Germany or the Soviet Union developed a long range bomber fleet. Germany could have used something like this to hit the Russian armament plants that were moved eastward and to bombard major cities like Moscow. Also how many of the main allied Bombing raids occurred in Germany proper prior to Kursk where Germany arguably was forced to a defensive posture for the rest of the Eastern front campaign? The ground war was likely decided in the east at this point it was only a matter of how long it took the Russian to prevail due to the superior manpower and resources.

The strategic air campaign that the western allies waged on Germany was significant but would not have been that significant of a determinant to the outcome of the Eastern front. Even with chemical, fuel, etc production being delayed and sometimes completely halted, the German war machine was still fully concentrated on the Eastern front and were able to consolidate all of their material there. The affects of this campaign can only truly be seen towards the very end when the strategic reserves had been completely exhausted by the relentlessness and pursuit of the Red Army.

I still firmly believe that the German Reich was doomed from the start in a war with the USSR and had the Ruskies heeded our warning, the Germans wouldn't have gotten as far as they did in the first place. It is my belief that the Soviets would have won against a German invasion with or without the western allies' help due to their vast reserves of manpower, their industrial capacity, and the morale of their soldiers.

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Soviet T-34 with an "88".

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doesn't take an "elite warrior" to sight in and knock out a Soviet T-34 with an "88". In fact, it's quite easy. And keep in mind that thanks to superior German optics, those 88's would have been taking out T-34's before the T-34s could even see where the shots were coming from.

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Kursk says hi. Doesn't do much good when you have hundreds and hundreds swarming you.

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The Soviets simple did not have the resources to field any strategic force that was capable of having any real influence on the battlefield.

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Eh. At this point in the war the factories had just moved east to the urals. 12 thousand and 15 thousand t34s rolled off the assembly line in 42-43 respectively. Compared to 80~ and 650~ tiger 1 tanks in the same year for Germany. Less than 1000 panzer IV made in 42-43.

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But what good does that do if you can't even feed those men or even provide all of them with weapons? and how will they march on foot when you can't even provide enough leather to keep boots on their feet?

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Dead men don't need shoes or guns. To stalin, these don't matter. Send the men anyway. And he did. And they died. But the guys after them still came, and eventually would overrun.

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The simple fact of WWI on the Eastern Front is that without Lend/Lease the Soviets Red Army would by mid-1942 at the latest have been an immobile, unorganized

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While the lend lease helped exponentially in the early war, once production ramped up in the urals, it was done. There was no way Germany would overcome.

Soviet tank production was aided by not having to produce trucks...I forget the exact number of 2 1/2 ton trucks provided under Lend Lease, but the number was astronomical...

Here is the difference darth. You're thinking with a western mindset. You have to throw all of that out the window.

You have to look at the situation as stalin did. Stalin was willing to let every man woman child and animal die. This alone ensured his victory. Over nothing else. He would have sent 10 year old boys with sticks, barefoot, to charge the enemy. He simply didn't care. As long as there was a man, woman, or child alive, the fight was on.

This was a war that Germany could never, and would never, win.

Logistics don't matter. Guns don't matter. Food doesn't matter. If you're willing to have your country completely wiped off the map, there is no hope for the other side to win.

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Here is the difference darth. You're thinking with a western mindset. You have to throw all of that out the window. You have to look at the situation as stalin did. Stalin was willing to let every man woman child and animal die. This alone ensured his victory. Over nothing else. He would have sent 10 year old boys with sticks, barefoot, to charge the enemy. He simply didn't care. As long as there was a man, woman, or child alive, the fight was on. This was a war that Germany could never, and would never, win. Logistics don't matter. Guns don't matter. Food doesn't matter. If you're willing to have your country completely wiped off the map, there is no hope for the other side to win.

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I'm not persuaded by your arguments that focus on Stalin's Will to Victory as the decisive factor. IMHO, wars are won with more quantifiable hard factors.

I'm especially unpersuaded by the notion that barefoot boys from Bryansk armed with pointed sticks could have stormed the Reichstag in May, 1945.

BUT, there are very few absolutes in arguing history and very few opportunities to prove a hypothesis using a scientific approach. As such, there are not totally wrong answers and no totally correct answers. There's no "I'm totally right and you're totally wrong" when arguing this issue.



In closing, I will say that it's tough to make a strong case about an issue regarding the Eastern Front without having reviewed the latest facts unearthed from the Soviet archives. That's why the 2015 Glantz book is important: When Titans Clashed.

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Kursk says hi. Doesn't do much good when you have hundreds and hundreds swarming you.

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Even with the Soviets capacity to build T-34s by the thousands, there is no way they could have kept up the loss ratio in tanks they suffered at Kursk comparative to the Germans. This is especially true of the German front lines is augmented by all the 88's that were tied up in German in an AA role.

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Eh. At this point in the war the factories had just moved east to the urals. 12 thousand and 15 thousand t34s rolled off the assembly line in 42-43 respectively. Compared to 80~ and 650~ tiger 1 tanks in the same year for Germany. Less than 1000 panzer IV made in 42-43.

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Again, the issue is not tank production numbers. Where the Soviets well short was in producing the things that are needed to keep those tanks fighting. Simply rolling a T-34 off an assembly line is not enough. Now you've got to get that T-34 to the front and in the fight. That takes a shite ton of men and resources behind the front. That's what the Soviets could not pull off alone.

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Dead men don't need shoes or guns. To stalin, these don't matter. Send the men anyway. And he did. And they died. But the guys after them still came, and eventually would overrun.

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As has already been pointed out, even the Soviets only had so many men to hurl at German MG-42s. And if you add in the fact the Soviet tanks and artillery would have become useless due to lack of fuel and ammo on top of the fact the Red Army infantry would have been starving and probably either unarmed or low on ammo themselves, it becomes obvious to anyone that there is no way the Red Army would have not collapsed within a few months at first.

Keep in mind, just as supplies had to be transported to the front, so did men. How are you going to move these masses of men without something as simple as sufficient coal supplies for trains. And even if you can move them, how are you going to protect those trains from German air attacks when your own fighters are grounded from lack of fuel or something as simple as lack of tires?

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While the lend lease helped exponentially in the early war, once production ramped up in the urals, it was done. There was no way Germany would overcome.

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It's the early part of the war we're talking about. If the Soviets had not received the aid from the Western Allies, here would have not been a later part of the war because there would not be a Soviet et Union left by then.

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It's the early part of the war we're talking about. If the Soviets had not received the aid from the Western Allies, here would have not been a later part of the war because there would not be a Soviet et Union left by then

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The Soviets had already stopped the Germans before the lend-lease even started arriving. The Reich took far too many losses in Ukraine and in Western Russia at the very beginning for it to have ever been sustainable.

Once again, the Soviets were caught with their pants down because Stalin and Hitler were allies at first. It wasn't until the Nazis had already decimated the Soviet Air Force and the Soviet Generals were panicking that Stalin even believed that it was happening. If Germany and Russia fight the war both prepared from the start it would've been over a lot quicker. Germany was very fortunate that they got as far as they did from the start