re: The affect of the strategic Air War on the Eastern Front of WWII

Roundabout the time of the battle of Kursk (operation citadel) ~75% of the total German army was on the eastern front. The Soviets were going to take huge losses with that kind of opposition and it's pretty amazing they pulled through.

In 1943 it was safer to be in a foxhole than a B-17 over Europe. Let that sink in.

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I'm actually curious as to what would have happened if the US never entered the war against Germany. I don't think the Germans would have won. The war would have been drawn out a lot longer, but I don't think they would have had enough resources to occupy that much of Europe.

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Great question. But to answer it we've got to first determine to what level the US remained "neutral". You see the US was technically a "neutral" nation from Sept. 1939 to December 1941. During that time the Soviets went first from a close ally of Germany, even carving up Poland with the Germans. But while all this was going on, the Americans were already sending mountains of supplies and giving tons of support to the allies, which at that time was really just Great Britain and France and then just Great Britain itself when France was knocked out of the war in June 1940. It wasn't for another full year that the Soviets went from German active ally to enemy in June 1941. In fact, there were Soviet trains entering Germany packed full of vital war supplies like iron ore, coal, and grain even up to he very hour the Germans launched their invasion. But let's say that the US stayed out of the war AND were actually truly neutral in that they did not provide material help to the Allies. This leaves us with two different outcomes.

1. The US does not enter the war as an active belligerent but does provide the Allies, including the Soviets, supplies via the "lend/lease" program. In this war, the most likely outcome would be a long, drawn out war where there is an eventual settled peace that more than likely would leave Nazi Germany as the premiere continental power in Western & Central Europe and the Soviet Union is limited to it's prewar borders or perhaps losing areas such as the Baltic counties, Belorussia, and all or parts of Ukraine.

2. The US remain truly neutral and provides no material support to the Allies, including the Soviet Union. In this war Great Britain would be forced to sue of peace and probably have to give up large chunks of it's oversea empire and accept a secondary role in world affairs comparative to Germany. The soviet Union would probably hold out until perhaps mid-1942 before lack of supplies and logistics capabilities would cause the Red Army to collapse. Virtually all of continental Europe up to and including most of European Russia would be left under German control. Most likely either the Soviet government would be toppled and replaced by a Nazi puppet government. Either way, the Western frontier of what use to be Russia would be now pushed all the way bask to somewhere around the Urals. In short, #2 would see Germany winning the war.

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The affect of the Stratigic Air War on the Eastern Front of WWII

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Darth_Vader

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Lmgtfy

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The Soviets used Human Wave attacks early in the war. The Soviet Union had little interest in reducing their casualties.

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They also used human wave attacks up to the very end of the war. A perfect example is the Battle of Seelow Heights in April 1945. The Soviets used the same tactics they did in front of Moscow in the winter of 41. The only thing that changed was the weight of the Soviet's preparatory bombardments.

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Thoughts?

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Agreed.

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Yes the Soviets bore the brunt of losses

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It wasn't just the Soviets who suffered a ton of losses in the east.

7 of every 8 Germans who died in wwii, died fighting the ruskies.

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The war was unwinnable without the strategic air campaign over Germany

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Eh. I'm not too positive on this. True, while the strategic air campaign launched from Britain by the Americans/British, I doubt that even had those units been pulled off the 88 (remember now, most of the AA in these large cities are manned not by the elite wer wehrmacht were the old, injured, children, they would have done much against the horde.

Stalin was willing to let every man, woman, child, dog and cat die to defeat the Germans. This wasn't some humane front, it was a war of annihilation and the ruskies simply had too many men.

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The Soviets did not have the resources to conduct a strategic air campaign of any real value.

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Eh. Debatable. While they clearly didn't have the air superiority and resources as the luftwaffe, that doesn't mean they didn't have dedicated air units who reaked havoc on the Germans. See the grand Soviet winter counteroffensive in 1942 where the luftwaffe was grounded, yet the Soviet air force was out staffing and causing havoc. Then there are the all women units such as the night witches who struck fear into the Germans.

So while the red airforce wasn't up to par with the other allies, to say they didn't hold an airforce with any real value is disingenuous. They were there, and they plaid crucial roles many times.

The main argument I have against your points though, is in the late stages of the war, 43 onward, the luftwaffe was a shell of its former self. Germany didn't have the manpower, she didn't have the pilots, the guns, the bombs, the fuel, etc to keep the luftwaffe up and to her full potential. So by and large, by the time the red horde is knocking on germanys door, the gig us up.

Hitler could have had the 1939-1940 luftwaffe going up against the red army and it still wouldn't have done much good. Stalin was all in at this point and what's a couple more million deaths to a guy like stalin?

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Thus, while the Soviets did play their vital role and they did suffer heavier losses than the other allies, they could not have won the war on their own, nor was their role more important than that of the Western Allies.

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Tl;Dr, this ultimately would end up being a false claim. While the Soviets would have lost several million more men, Hitler was fighting another extreme totalitarian style government. One which was more than willing to see every man, woman, child, and animal under his dominion DIE before giving into the Germans. Sans all else, in a one on one clash of the titans, I still see Russia overcoming. She's simply too vast, too populated, and too cruel to lose.

Without strategic bombing, it is possible that Hitler would have developed a nuke which would have been a game changer against the Russians.

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no but don't lie the link is funny of your past of obviously running to google in picture threads and others

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I know you want that to be true. But it's not. If I know what some picture is I'll say so. If I don't know what a picture is, I'll say so.

But thanks for making a baseless accusation against me without one scintilla of evidence to back up your claim.

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mid-1942 the Soviets collapsed and sued for peace. How would have Hitler have reacted?

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If there would have been peace talks in 42, it would have come from Germany, not Russia. The writing was on the wall already to many on there German side that this was a big mistake. Germany was sitting in a great spot to open negotiations, on the cusp of stalingrad, hundreds of miles taken. The Russian industry wasn't up to full steam yet, having just picked up shop to move east.

But to answer the question, Hitler absolutely would not have taken a Soviet surrender. It was absolutely and completely against his nazi code of "ethics". The ruskies were subhuman. The nazis were there to annihilate them, not make them subjects.