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Posted on 4/22/22 at 10:44 am to upgrayedd
quote:I like how now the argument against EVs is that they have to actually be built out of physical materials.
The irony is that it's supposed to be a "green solution", not that one is replacing the other
Posted on 4/22/22 at 10:46 am to Korkstand
quote:
I like how now the argument against EVs is that they have to actually be built out of physical materials.
Yeah. It’s a concern, but to me it’s not an environmental thing. I just don’t want to be dependent on Bolivia or China for all of this.
EV performance is awesome. We need more charging infrastructure and a wider variety of EV models.
Posted on 4/22/22 at 10:48 am to Korkstand
quote:
is that they have to actually be built out of physical materials.
Is no issue if you have domestic sources.
We'll buy elsewhere and get screwed.
Posted on 4/22/22 at 10:55 am to RogerTheShrubber
quote:What percentage of raw materials in any car is sourced domestically?
Is no issue if you have domestic sources.
We'll buy elsewhere and get screwed.
Posted on 4/22/22 at 10:56 am to soccerfüt
quote:You even Bunge, baw?
The last time a ship ever docked in Vidalia was never, brah.
Posted on 4/22/22 at 10:56 am to toosleaux
quote:
the massive amounts of graphite
Isn't that just another word for Coal?
Posted on 4/22/22 at 11:09 am to toosleaux
quote:
The irony of it all just astounds me. Do you know how they get the massive amounts of graphite for all of these electric car batteries? Using machines like this. This is an actual graphite mine by the way. What do you think these machines run on? Good ol' dirty diesel.
Over the life of any electric vehicle made today, fossil fuels will certainly be used in production and usage/charging. There is no way around it right now. The part you are ignoring is that over the life of an EV, less oil & gas will be used than a traditional, similar vehicle with an internal combustion engine. There is a net positive for EVs whether we like them or not. For the record, I don't have an EV; my wife and I both drive gas guzzlers.
Posted on 4/22/22 at 11:09 am to member12
Elon thinking ahead. Gonna be right on I-14 in 75 years.
Posted on 4/22/22 at 11:17 am to Korkstand
quote:
I like how now the argument against EVs is that they have to actually be built out of physical materials.
I'm not arguing against them. I'm simply saying that the idea that these are some sort of green solution with minimal environmental impacts, especially as compared to what we have now, is preposterous (and many, many igorant people, including powerful politicians, believe that nonsense).
Posted on 4/22/22 at 11:25 am to toosleaux
quote:
What do you think these machines run on? Good ol' dirty diesel.
You're an anti-graphite.
Posted on 4/22/22 at 11:33 am to upgrayedd
quote:I personally don't care much about the "green" angle, I'm more concerned with the reduced lifetime energy costs that EVs offer (which, if we understand that everything we do or build can be reduced down to the energy consumed and embodied, kind of supports the "green" argument). But if you want to argue against the "green" stuff, it's going to take a lot more than pointing out that we require raw materials to build them as that is required of every product.
I'm not arguing against them. I'm simply saying that the idea that these are some sort of green solution with minimal environmental impacts, especially as compared to what we have now, is preposterous (and many, many igorant people, including powerful politicians, believe that nonsense).
This post was edited on 4/22/22 at 11:35 am
Posted on 4/22/22 at 12:16 pm to terriblegreen
?? I didn’t know
This post was edited on 4/22/22 at 12:19 pm
Posted on 4/22/22 at 12:17 pm to Korkstand
quote:
personally don't care much about the "green" angle, I'm more concerned with the reduced lifetime energy costs that EVs offer (which, if we understand that everything we do or build can be reduced down to the energy consumed and embodied, kind of supports the "green" argument). But if you want to argue against the "green" stuff, it's going to take a lot more than pointing out that we require raw materials to build them as that is required of every product.
I'm not making the argument that there are materials required. I'm making the argument that the amount of energy and "carbon" required to not only create the vehicles but an entire infrastructure, including a massive amount of new power plants, likely completely negates the green aspect of the appeal if these things.
Not to mention the lifespan of these power packs and the not so green recycling/regenerating facilities that ain't so pleasant.
Posted on 4/22/22 at 12:28 pm to upgrayedd
quote:We already have the infrastructure, we've been building it for over a century. Do you not see the value (and cost savings) of shared infrastructure for all our energy needs? And we need approximately zero new power plants to support widespread EV adoption.
I'm making the argument that the amount of energy and "carbon" required to not only create the vehicles but an entire infrastructure, including a massive amount of new power plants, likely completely negates the green aspect of the appeal if these things.
Posted on 4/22/22 at 12:30 pm to upgrayedd
quote:
not so green
I remember when the environmentalists shite on nuclear and we ended up with coal for another 50 years.
They're clueless. Like locusts, they destroy one segment of society then run to another, just to destroy it.
Posted on 4/22/22 at 12:37 pm to Korkstand
quote:
We already have the infrastructure, we've been building it for over a century. Do you not see the value (and cost savings) of shared infrastructure for all our energy needs? And we need approximately zero new power plants to support widespread EV adoption.
We can't currently support the energy required for a completely, or majority, EV fleet. More energy will absolutely be required. The infrastructure will also 100% require more raw materials such as copper. This isn't some sort of controversial argument. And until we get serious about putting more nuclear plants online, the only real solution for increased energy requirements is fossil fuels.
Posted on 4/22/22 at 12:41 pm to RogerTheShrubber
quote:
I remember when the environmentalists shite on nuclear and we ended up with coal for another 50 years.
They're clueless. Like locusts, they destroy one segment of society then run to another, just to destroy it.
The same people who support the green new deal that would force a massive need for incredible amounts of new raw materials are the same people that protest opening of a new copper mine.
Posted on 4/22/22 at 12:46 pm to upgrayedd
quote:More energy, yes. More generation capacity, no. We have more than adequate capacity.
We can't currently support the energy required for a completely, or majority, EV fleet. More energy will absolutely be required.
quote:What doesn't?
The infrastructure will also 100% require more raw materials such as copper.
quote:Yeah neither side thinks it's controversial.
This isn't some sort of controversial argument.
quote:And that's fine until renewables develop further. Just know that a given unit of energy from FF burned in a power plant and sent over power lines to charge an EV will drive it further than an equivalent unit burned directly in an ICE engine.
And until we get serious about putting more nuclear plants online, the only real solution for increased energy requirements is fossil fuels.
Posted on 4/22/22 at 12:52 pm to upgrayedd
quote:We can probably make more progress in this discussion if we would focus less on the illogical wackos and more on the matter of reducing and stabilizing long-term energy costs.
The same people who support the green new deal that would force a massive need for incredible amounts of new raw materials are the same people that protest opening of a new copper mine.
Everyone knows that when the cost of transportation/shipping goes up, so does the cost of everything else. Why can't we recognize that these ups and downs will never end as long as we restrict ourselves to basically one source of fuel? Why can't we recognize that EVs automatically diversify our potential fuel sources, and that diversity inherently stabilizes markets?
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