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Message
re: Southern Baptist Convention: IVF is a sin
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:22 pm to StrongOffer
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:22 pm to StrongOffer
quote:
Morality comes from God
except it doesn't....
again, if the human species didn't adhere, at least in part, to some sort of moral, ethical standard, we would have died out as a species.... and that was WAYYYYYYYYYYY before any religion was ever formed....
and you should enlighten Buddhist to this fact... they are some of the most moral strict people i've ever met, yet they don't worship a god.... interesting, isn't it?
This post was edited on 6/13/24 at 12:26 pm
2
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:24 pm to Tridentds
quote:
By 1 person over the next 5 years., Good grief of all the things a church can do and they choose to take a stand on IVF?
fundamentally, you can't take a hard pro-life stance and approve of IVF
calling IVF a sin removes the counterargument to their abortion one
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:25 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:So does a lion when they kill a gazelle. Should we start prosecuting lions? What makes it morally significant? You are also making the argument that the majority decides something is moral. So if an Amazonian tribe all agrees human sacrifice is good, you agree it is moral?
A non-religious person could reasonably argue that murder is wrong because it robs someone of their life against their will.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:31 pm to StrongOffer
quote:
You are also making the argument that the majority decides something is moral. So if an Amazonian tribe all agrees human sacrifice is good, you agree it is moral?
The bible explicitly describes and condones slavery, and even goes so far as to explain how specific situations should be handled. The words in the bible were written by many involved in the formation and progression of the christian faith.
Would you say that they were moral? If so, then the answer to your question is yes. If not, than morality clearly isn't derived from religion.
This post was edited on 6/13/24 at 12:32 pm
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:31 pm to StrongOffer
quote:
So does a lion when they kill a gazelle. Should we start prosecuting lions? What makes it morally significant? You are also making the argument that the majority decides something is moral. So if an Amazonian tribe all agrees human sacrifice is good, you agree it is moral?
Are you weighing an animals life the same as a human's? Why do Christians not prosecute the lion? You're using silly hyperbole here to distract from the discussion at hand.
The reality is the reason Christians want you to believe that you can't be good without God is because then that means you can't live a life without their God. And that keeps people in the church.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:31 pm to Dire Wolf
What about Immaculate Conception?
Is that okay? Asking for a friend since we are talking fundamentals and all...
Is that okay? Asking for a friend since we are talking fundamentals and all...
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:36 pm to lionward2014
quote:
We are at a moral crossroads about what to do with unused embryos, but for now I am content to continue paying for them to be frozen for the forseeable future.
We are in a similar situation and plan on donating. After the hell we went through to finally have a child I am happy to do anything that could help someone else trying.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:36 pm to low end
quote:Thats just not true. You’re taking what it says about slavery out of context and I don’t care to explain in length about what it says about slavery in the Bible. It’s a lengthy and nuanced discussion. You can look up the many apologists and theologians who play this out. It doesn’t “condone” or say slavery is good.
The bible explicitly describes and condones slavery, and even goes so far as to explain how specific situations should be handled. The words in the bible were written by many involved in the formation and progression of the christian faith.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:42 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:Christians don’t want to prosecute lions because we don’t view an animal’s life the same as a human’s. that’s the point. We know humans were created separate in God’s own image and have intrinsic value. We also think animal have value too, but in a different and distinct way. Because we are predisposed to align with God’s will, we know when we do things that not “good”. A lion doesn’t feel bad when it kills another lion for leader of the pride.
Are you weighing an animals life the same as a human's? Why do Christians not prosecute the lion? You're using silly hyperbole here to distract from the discussion at hand.
Edit to say lions don’t have a sense of morality, we do. I wonder why that is.
This post was edited on 6/13/24 at 12:57 pm
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:43 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:People can do good works without any religion. Anyone who says differently is in their own world.
The reality is the reason Christians want you to believe that you can't be good without God
quote:The argument there is misconstrued as well. It's not the life on earth that you cannot have, but rather the eternal one. I wouldn't say a life without God can be without good and morally rights acts. Just that the mercy for the acts and thoughts outside of what is good and grace despite of them is the reason God is needed.
that means you can't live a life without their God. And that keeps people in the church.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:44 pm to Tridentds
quote:
What about Immaculate Conception?
Is that okay? Asking for a friend since we are talking fundamentals and all...
jesus was born so yeah it would be under their logic
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:51 pm to AwesomeSauce
quote:
People can do good works without any religion. Anyone who says differently is in their own world.
Again, "good" doesn't mean anything if there's no God. It's arbitrary and worthless if it doesn't come from an ultimate authority of goodness.
"Good" only means something if it's defined as something that aligns with God's will. One can do something good without religion. In other words, a non-religious person can absolutely do something that aligns with God's will even if they don't even believe in God.
I'm really surprised by how many people in this thread don't seem to appreciate the difference between objective morality and relativism.
This post was edited on 6/13/24 at 12:54 pm
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:53 pm to low end
quote:Except you've offered no alternative to demonstrating how truth exists.
Except you've rebutted nothing and proven that all of this is based on your own personal faith, which is defined as "strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof."
And no, that's what you want to believe I've been doing. I haven't done any of that. I'm actually using reason alone. I haven't even gotten to Christianity yet
This post was edited on 6/13/24 at 1:43 pm
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:56 pm to CatholicLSUDude
quote:
Again, "good" doesn't mean anything if there's no God.
i don't agree with this, but...
quote:
One can do something good without religion. In other words, a non-religious person can absolutely do something that aligns with God's will even if they don't even believe in God.
i do agree with this...
all in all, i don't think that our core belief is that far off, i think it's just we label it a little differently... the God thing works for you, it doesn't for me... and that's OK... we are both trying to be "good" people, even if our reason or primary derivative of "why" is different...
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:56 pm to chRxis
quote:Yes, of course you do.
i don't have to tell you about how we KNOW there is truth, do i?
quote:I can tell you that nothing makes any sense without one. I've yet to hear how we can arrive at truth without God.
at the end of the day, no one, not you, not me, can say they KNOW, for a fact, that there is a creator...
Y'all joke, mock, laugh, etc. etc. but you haven't told me how you can believe in truth without believing in God.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:57 pm to Jim Rockford
Every religion has its own theories and thoughts. No one knows which ones to believe or follow anymore. It’s a crap shoot. Roll the dice and pick one.
Do I believe in god? Yes I do. Do I believe in an afterlife? Yes I do. Do I believe religions now a days are out for themselves? Yes I do. Otherwise you wouldn’t have elaborate churches with movie screens and huge salaries for the pastors and staff. Where 1 is gathered I will be there.
Do I believe in god? Yes I do. Do I believe in an afterlife? Yes I do. Do I believe religions now a days are out for themselves? Yes I do. Otherwise you wouldn’t have elaborate churches with movie screens and huge salaries for the pastors and staff. Where 1 is gathered I will be there.
This post was edited on 6/13/24 at 1:00 pm
Posted on 6/13/24 at 12:59 pm to AwesomeSauce
quote:
People can do good works without any religion. Anyone who says differently is in their own world.
I cannot figure out an objectively morality (absolute good and evil defined) without invoking the existence of a supreme moral authority or God. And I say this as agnostic and a moral relativist.
This post was edited on 6/13/24 at 1:00 pm
Posted on 6/13/24 at 1:00 pm to BluegrassBelle
quote:Yes, in line with the teachings of Christ.
You literally just said non-religious people who are acting morally good are acting Christian.
quote:Christ does, not indiviual Christians.
That suggests Christians have ownership of morally good behavior.
quote:Yes, I'm not Christ. But when I do good in the world, when I love, when I sacrifice, when I'm selfless, I live according to his way.
And there's a whole lot of evidence out there that they don't actually act morally good in a lot of circumstances.
You do the same.
You're a reader if I recall. Tom Holland's Dominion is really good. He's not a Christian, but he's getting close to becoming one. Through scholarship no less...
This post was edited on 6/13/24 at 1:01 pm
Posted on 6/13/24 at 1:01 pm to chRxis
quote:
Morality comes from God
You can tell someone has never really thought about this issue when you hear a statement like this.
Jesus gave his full and absolute endorsement of "the Law" which is the Pentateuch, the 5 books of Moses: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy
If there was a person that actually followed those books to the letter, that would be the most immoral person you had ever met, and it wouldn't be close.
You can only be a Moral person if you are not following what comes from the Judeo-Christian God. I encourage you to read through the Bible twice, cover to cover. I am confident you will agree with me.
Posted on 6/13/24 at 1:02 pm to bulldog95
quote:Probably pick the one that boasts the biggest truth claims. That would be a good start.
Every religion has its own theories and thoughts. No one knows which ones to believe or follow anymore. It’s a crap shoot. Roll the dice and pick one.
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