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Message
re: Midway: if we lose our carriers and the Japs lose just one,
Posted on 10/24/19 at 8:45 am to tide06
Posted on 10/24/19 at 8:45 am to tide06
quote:
At a minimum their failure to wipe out the fleet oil reserves was borderline criminal.
I was going to post that, but chose the other.
If you lose Hawaii in the Pacific Theater, and Great Britain in the European Theater, where does the US stage for counter-offensives.
In the latter, the end result would be the Russians taking all of Germany and probably France, Spain and Italy.
2
Posted on 10/24/19 at 8:51 am to keks tadpole
At the end of the day Midway was a big, big deal and the consequences of our decisive win had ripple effects all over the world.
Good comments guys. I appreciate it.
Good comments guys. I appreciate it.
Posted on 10/24/19 at 9:06 am to Tiny Rick
quote:
Definitely changes the whole landscape of the war. We basically go on the defensive if we lose Midway.
Only for a short period. You are forgetting our production capability. Look at the number of carriers we had by mid and end of war. So, it may have taken an extra year but the result would have been the same.
The Japs wanted Midway as a staging ground. While, yeah, they could have used it as just that, we must also remember their resources weren't adequate enough to fully utilize it. Could they have for a short time? Sure, but to what end? They couldn't properly hold it for any length of time.
This post was edited on 10/24/19 at 9:08 am
Posted on 10/24/19 at 9:11 am to Jim Rockford
quote:
fewer landing craft for Europe
Not really. In 1944 alone, the US built more war machines than Japan did their entire war. The production wouldn't have changed.
Posted on 10/24/19 at 9:22 am to Spaceman Spiff
quote:
The Japs wanted Midway as a staging ground. While, yeah, they could have used it as just that, we must also remember their resources weren't adequate enough to fully utilize it. Could they have for a short time? Sure, but to what end? They couldn't properly hold it for any length of time.
We all agree the Japs had no shot. The only question would how a loss at Midway following the disaster at Pearl impact our global strategy and events elsewhere.
You suggest the war in the Pacific could have been extended another year. Just looking at the East; would that have provided Russia a larger role? What would the China situation have become? What about Indo China and the French presence? Korea?
A lot of what ifs if we lose big at Midway.
Posted on 10/24/19 at 9:26 am to doubleb
quote:
But how fast can we build back, put more carriers at sea, and how can we protect our interests until then?
We were churning our carriers after 13mos of construction
We might have lost Hawaii but there was no possibility we would lose the West Coast
Japan simply had no chance to win a prolonged war with the US
Posted on 10/24/19 at 9:29 am to doubleb
quote:
You suggest the war in the Pacific could have been extended another year. Just looking at the East; would that have provided Russia a larger role? What would the China situation have become? What about Indo China and the French presence? Korea?
A lot of what ifs if we lose big at Midway.
I honestly do not see it shifting our strategy at all. Midway was a huge surprise victory for us. We expected to take some lumps in '42 but to surge ahead in '43 and beyond.
It parallels the US Civil war. The confederacy had great success early until attrition caught up with them.
Posted on 10/24/19 at 9:41 am to Spaceman Spiff
quote:
production capability.
People as well as material.
The prewar German and Japanese doctrine meant they produced a smallish number of high-quality pilots, failing men for rather nit-picky reasons. The US doctrine was to train a huge number of good, competent pilots. This made a huge difference in the second half of the war.
Posted on 10/24/19 at 1:11 pm to Tigeralum2008
quote:
I honestly do not see it shifting our strategy at all. Midway was a huge surprise victory for us. We expected to take some lumps in '42 but to surge ahead in '43 and beyond.
^What he said. Russia? Russia had no interest in the east except after the war was practically won - all of their assets were tied up in the ETO. The CBI theater would have proceeded just like it did.
Japan had no shot. They knew it at the start of the war. Their hope was to destroy enough of our fleet (carriers) at Pearl Harbor to bring the US to the bargaining table. Even had they sunk 4 carriers, it wouldn't have made any real difference.
quote:
The prewar German and Japanese doctrine meant they produced a smallish number of high-quality pilots, failing men for rather nit-picky reasons. The US doctrine was to train a huge number of good, competent pilots. This made a huge difference in the second half of the war.
Excellent point. We also had so many that pilots were sent home after so many missions - pilots like Boyington, Gentile, Preddy, Bong, etc, would have had much higher scores had they been forced to go through the entire war. The attrition rate didn't affect us like it did the axis powers.
This post was edited on 10/24/19 at 1:24 pm
Posted on 10/24/19 at 1:20 pm to saturday
quote:
There would be Sakebucks on every corner rather than Starbucks.
So it wouldn't be all bad then.
Posted on 10/24/19 at 1:29 pm to doubleb
Japan had no desires for conquering mainland U.S. They wanted access to American oil reserves in the Philippines, and rubber in French IndoChina and British Indonesia.
They needed these raw materials to win their protracted war of conquest against China.
Their goal in the Pacific was to quickly cripple the U.S. navy, conquer the necessary resource colonies, and then sue for favorable peace terms.
If Japan wins Midway decisively, that peace deal becomes likely, but not certain.
They needed these raw materials to win their protracted war of conquest against China.
Their goal in the Pacific was to quickly cripple the U.S. navy, conquer the necessary resource colonies, and then sue for favorable peace terms.
If Japan wins Midway decisively, that peace deal becomes likely, but not certain.
Posted on 10/24/19 at 1:33 pm to doubleb
Why are you writing this in present tense?
Posted on 10/24/19 at 1:45 pm to doubleb
quote:
I’ve seen a lot of good history threads here, but mostly about Europe in WW2 or the civil war. Little regarding Midway and how big our dominating victory was.
I believe the victory at Midway is one of the most important moments in western civilization. It was a miracle and if the US lost the Japs would have had practically free reign in the pacific for another year. With that year that could have fortified their position, found the oil in south east asia they were desperate for, increased the size of their navy, hit Russia from behind, etc.
Posted on 10/24/19 at 1:55 pm to LB84
quote:
increased the size of their navy, hit Russia from behind
How would they have increased the size? They never built any more capital ships to replace the ones they had - and those were made from steel brought from the US.
Posted on 10/24/19 at 2:03 pm to Spaceman Spiff
quote:
How would they have increased the size? They never built any more capital ships to replace the ones they had - and those were made from steel brought from the US.
They had steel mills. A year of mining ore from conquered lands and not having the US harassing them they could have made large strides in steel production and the production of ships.
Posted on 10/24/19 at 2:04 pm to Spaceman Spiff
I forget where I saw online a while back but there was a really interesting article I read about US production in WW2. I think someone earlier mentioned but at one point toward the end of the war we were churning out more ships per year than Japan did through the entire war including pre US involvement. It was almost exponential growth. I wish I could find it again.
Posted on 10/24/19 at 2:11 pm to Spaceman Spiff
quote:
Russia had no interest in the east except after the war was practically won
Yes, but if they had taken Berlin in 1945 when they did and the Japs were not on the verge of losing they may have become active when they say the opportunity in the Pacific. They may have gone after more land than they did. That's what I meant.
And what would have happened in China, Korea, and Indo China if the Japanese had not been defeated in 1945?
But the nukes may have made the difference and it wouldn't have mattered.
Posted on 10/24/19 at 2:13 pm to ClientNumber9
quote:
Why are you writing this in present tense?
I'm just knocking things around. Does it bother you?
It's just a big what if, and besides I don't think the Midway Battle gets the credit it deserves from a lot of people.
Posted on 10/24/19 at 2:18 pm to doubleb
Days of Infamy(amazon link)
if you like this stuff-
good alternate history series by Newt Gingrich and William S. Forstchen
they also did a 'what if Pickett's charge succeeded' civil war series, and a great Revolutionary War series.
if you like this stuff-
good alternate history series by Newt Gingrich and William S. Forstchen
they also did a 'what if Pickett's charge succeeded' civil war series, and a great Revolutionary War series.
Posted on 10/24/19 at 2:21 pm to TheFlyingTiger
Thxs for the link.
From what I know Midway was not like traditional battles like Gettysburg, or D-Day, or Battle of the Bulge, etc.
It was decided on intel, bravery and a relatively few men; yet it was the tipping point of the war and help bring it to an earlier conclusion.
From what I know Midway was not like traditional battles like Gettysburg, or D-Day, or Battle of the Bulge, etc.
It was decided on intel, bravery and a relatively few men; yet it was the tipping point of the war and help bring it to an earlier conclusion.
This post was edited on 10/24/19 at 2:52 pm
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