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Message

re: Louisiana should eliminate TOPS, Free up Budget

Posted on 2/16/16 at 10:59 am to
Posted by OceanMan
Member since Mar 2010
19968 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 10:59 am to
quote:

Current LSU tuition and fees is about 4800 per semester. Current students with TOPS pay about 1400. Removing TOPS will cost students an additional 3,400 per semester.



This brings up another point...If all else stays the same and attendence figures stay equal, that is more money out of the pocket of these parents, or more debt for these kids.

So at a time where our state has no cash, let's decrease disposable income by $6800/student. I'm sure that won't have an effect on estimated tax revenue.
Posted by Boudreaux35
BR
Member since Sep 2007
21413 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:00 am to
quote:

The problem I have with TOPS is that they are awarding average students. Raise the requirements some so it is actually a rewards for hard work.
This! Scoring 17 out of a possible 36 is not "TOPS", in fact it is pretty damn bad if you compare that score to any regular test.

I knew some pretty less than average students when I was in school that made way above 17. I would think that score should be attainable by a low C student.
Posted by yellowfin
Coastal Bar
Member since May 2006
97615 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:00 am to
quote:

Removing TOPS will cost students an additional 3,400 per semester.




you need to take into account the federal tax credit associated with tuition payments
Posted by The Sad Banana
The gate is narrow.
Member since Jul 2008
89498 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:01 am to
quote:

You are literally to dumb to insult. First of all, that is one of the biggest race-baiting articles I've ever seen. Want to know why more white people get TOPS? Because they EARN it while they are in high school. TOPS does not look at the color of the persons skin when deciding if they should receive the scholarship or not. Instead, TOPS looks at the achievements of that student. What should be done with TOPS is raising the requirements to receive the scholarship. TOPS wasn't designed for everyone to go to college. It was designed for those who work hard and are the smartest in the state to have incentive to go to in state schools. TOPS shouldn't be so easy to get coming out of high school. College isn't for everyone, TOPS shouldn't be either. It should only be for those individuals who have earned it regardless of their skin color and their parents socio-economic standing.

Posted by lsunurse
Member since Dec 2005
128950 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:06 am to
Gotcha. I agree the standards should be raised.


Also.....if the point is to keep the brightest in LA....maybe make it part of the program that you have to reside in the state for so many years after you graduate.....or you have to pay back the money.


My work gives me tuition reimbursement....if I leave my job before 2 years after I receive money.....I have to pay back the money.
Posted by therick711
South
Member since Jan 2008
25059 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:06 am to
The other step would be that no college with a four year graduation rate below 30% is eligible to receive funds from the program. Let's not reward failing institutions and incentivize students to pick programs with higher student outcomes.
Posted by OceanMan
Member since Mar 2010
19968 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:07 am to
quote:

you need to take into account the federal tax credit associated with tuition payments



Would be pretty difficult without knowing who is claiming the credit and their MAGI for phaseouts and tax brackets.

Even so, wouldnt the top credit only be be $2000*35%= $700 ?

The 2k is mostly used on whatever is currently being paid I would think.
Posted by Quatre Pot
Member since Jan 2015
1543 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:08 am to
I feel too that TOPS needs a massive overhaul but for a different reason. It's little more than a money laundering scheme for universities. It takes money that is generated through the state budget and artificially increases the amount of high paying customers for universities who are able to compete for these customers in a reduced competition pool. Students pay an artificially inflated price for the tuition because it is so subsidized by the state.
If the state were to cut or reduce TOPS the universities themselves would be hardest hit and would be forced to cut unnecessary programs to make themselves more attractive to people looking for practical education, they would have to set tuition rates to more competitively position themselves, and they would have to live within their means. Ultimately, students would benefit from a more appropriately priced university system.
Additionally, those who went to college would be making a commitment as the money wiuld be coming from them not the state.
Posted by therick711
South
Member since Jan 2008
25059 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:08 am to
quote:

Also.....if the point is to keep the brightest in LA....maybe make it part of the program that you have to reside in the state for so many years after you graduate.....or you have to pay back the money.




You need to read the documents about why TOPS was created. Part of the reason was to raise the caliber of students in our Universities. Tying students to Louisiana which may not be able to provide them with a job would just hurt in state institutions. LSU, for instance, has seen remarkable growth since 1998 in its standing as a University. TOPS has done the job at multiple levels. A post-education residency was rejected because the state struggles to produce jobs on a consistent enough level.
Posted by yellowfin
Coastal Bar
Member since May 2006
97615 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:10 am to
quote:

So at a time where our state has no cash, let's decrease disposable income by $6800/student. I


The cash is coming out of our pocket anyway through taxes. Let people attending college or their parents pay the bills.
Posted by dat yat
Chef Pass
Member since Jun 2011
4300 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:11 am to
There are way too many unprepared students receiving TOPS. It is a waste of money and my taxes should not pay for kids to screw off.

Raising standards would help but a reimbursement system, like many large employers have, may be better. Students receive the benefits at the end of each successful semester. If you fail to earn the credit-hours or required GPA, you get nothing.

If you can't afford to pay upfront, loans are available and you pay them back with the reimbursement.
Posted by Oddibe
Close to some, further from others
Member since Sep 2015
6565 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:11 am to
quote:

but to keep people who are incredibly smart in our universities
If that is the case then why are the standards so low to receive TOPS benefits. Most of the people receiving TOPS don't even qualify for academic scholarships.

quote:

instead of making Texas a ton of money and a great place to live.
LSU greatly benefits because of the strict admissions to both UT and A&M. Because of that many very good students in Texas end up going to LSU. LSU also makes it tougher for out-of-state kids to qualify for scholarships, who also happen to pay 3 times more for their education at LSU than LA residents.

What Louisiana is doing is rewarding average high school students with discounted tuition, while requiring tougher standards for those out state.

TOPS has absolutely nothing to do with keeping the best and brightest in state.

Interesting article from 3 years ago about LSU and out of state requirements.
Posted by bdevill
Baton Rouge, LA
Member since Mar 2008
11804 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:11 am to
quote:

The average household income for students who received the free college aid during the same time period ranged from $70,000 to $99,000 — far above Louisiana’s median household income of $44,164.


This statistic wreaks. If you have a family of 4 (for example) do you honestly think that $70,000-$90,000 a year is a lot of money? And you're comparing that to Louisiana's median income of $44,164..

Ridiculous.
Posted by OceanMan
Member since Mar 2010
19968 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:11 am to
quote:

A post-education residency was rejected because the state struggles to produce jobs on a consistent enough level.


Did not know this and have been wondering about it lately.
Posted by biglego
Ask your mom where I been
Member since Nov 2007
76173 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:14 am to
frick you. TOPS is one of the things Louisiana got right and was meant to stem the brain drain. It was started by a great man who believed in educating Louisana students, and he'd be pissed to hear stupid shite like what you're suggesting. The fact that politicians are too shitty to handle the budget doesn't mean this great program should be cut.
Posted by therick711
South
Member since Jan 2008
25059 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:14 am to
quote:

There are way too many unprepared students receiving TOPS. It is a waste of money and my taxes should not pay for kids to screw off.


It really doesn't. In 2014 only 11% of TOPS awards were cancelled for any reason.
This post was edited on 2/16/16 at 11:18 am
Posted by tzimme4
Metairie
Member since Jan 2008
28363 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:14 am to
The middle class is the biggest beneficiary from the TOPS program
Posted by OceanMan
Member since Mar 2010
19968 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:17 am to
quote:

The cash is coming out of our pocket anyway through taxes. Let people attending college or their parents pay the bills.


Individual income taxes wouldn't change in the scenario, but with less disposable income->less sales->less sales tax and less income for business->less income taxes from businesses.
Posted by therick711
South
Member since Jan 2008
25059 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:17 am to
quote:

If that is the case then why are the standards so low to receive TOPS benefits. Most of the people receiving TOPS don't even qualify for academic scholarships.


Because legislators changed the GPA down when they moved to a core GPA. The core GPA basically does the culling that a higher GPA would do since it requires classes that lower achievers don't take. That being said, the core GPA can and should be raised to help the program remain viable.
Posted by OceanMan
Member since Mar 2010
19968 posts
Posted on 2/16/16 at 11:23 am to
quote:

TOPS has absolutely nothing to do with keeping the best and brightest in state.


Come on man.

quote:

If that is the case then why are the standards so low to receive TOPS benefits


You know the benefits are not uniform for all students, right?
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