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Started By
Message
re: Lest we forget.... VJ Day 75 Years Ago
Posted on 8/14/20 at 10:39 am to FightingTigers138
Posted on 8/14/20 at 10:39 am to FightingTigers138
quote:
Please explain the justification of killing 80,000 innocent people upon impact and many many more with radiation poisoning. I would love to hear it.
1.) Likely prevented at least one million Allied casualties.
2.) Likely prevented millions of Japanese military casualties.
3.) Every village, town, and city in Japan would be one Stalingrad after another. Prevented total destruction of the Japanese nation and prevented tens of millions of civilian casualties. Remember, the Japanese were trained to fight to the death - even the civilians.
4.) Prevented the Soviet Union from participating in the occupation of Japan, which would have likely resulted in a divided Japan like East/West Germany and North/South Korea, condemning half the country to living in a Communist state.
5.) Let the Soviets know we would be willing to drop them if needed.
6.) Total destruction of Japan by invasion would likely have prevented it from becoming the economic and technological powerhouse it became.
7.) Lack of radiation would have deprived us of things like Godzilla, Japanese game shows, weird commercials, and bizarre but high-quality Japanese porn.
This post was edited on 8/14/20 at 10:42 am
1
Posted on 8/14/20 at 10:41 am to TheFonz
quote:
.) Likely prevented at least one million Allied casualties.
2.) Likely prevented millions of Japanese military casualties.
3.) Every village, town, and city in Japan would be one Stalingrad after another. Prevented total destruction of the Japanese nation and prevented tens of millions of civilian casualties. Remember, the Japanese were trained to fight to the death - even the civilians.
4.) Prevented the Soviet Union from participating in the occupation of Japan, which would have likely resulted in a divided Japan like East/West Germany and North/South Korea
5.) Let the Soviets know we would be willing to drop them if needed.
6.) Total destruction of Japan by invasion would likely have prevented it from becoming the economic and technological powerhouse it became.
7.) Lack of radiation would have deprived us of things like Godzilla, Japanese game shows, weird commercials, and bizarre but high-quality Japanese porn.
Posted on 8/14/20 at 10:42 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
We would have been targeting civilians?
Yes. Because civilians don’t die by any other way during urban combat.
Nevermind the Japanese plans to use civilians to repel any invasion.
Posted on 8/14/20 at 10:46 am to FightingTigers138
These are the frickers you’re feeling sorry for..
Posted on 8/14/20 at 10:48 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:More Okinawan civilians died in the battle of Okinawa than Japanese and US soldiers combined, caught in the crossfire with no way to escape. The story wouldn't have been any different in a land invasion of Japan.
We would have been targeting civilians?
LINK
This post was edited on 8/14/20 at 10:48 am
Posted on 8/14/20 at 10:49 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
We would have been targeting civilians?
We had already killed 250,000 or more civilians before we dropped either of the bombs. The army air corps was firebombing Japanese cities on a regular basis for the last year/year and a half of the war. It was a different time, and it was total war.
If the bomb (or an American invasion) didn't kill a ton of Japanese civilians, the Russians invading Hokkaido certainly would have. The threat of a Russian invasion of the Japanese islands prompted us to drop the bombs and end the war just as much, if not moreseo than the projected loss of American life.
The Russian threat was also an enormous factor in Japan's decision to quit. They were more anti-communist than the West, and wanted no part of any Soviet occupation.
This post was edited on 8/14/20 at 10:51 am
Posted on 8/14/20 at 10:50 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:Not directly, but Allied bombing campaigns throughout the war were leveling entire cities. They didn't have modern guided bombs to hit military targets with precision accuracy. If you wanted the raids to be effective, carpet bombing the whole area was the strategy....which led to a lot of civilian casualties. And if we had to prepare for an invasion of the Japanese mainland, those bombing raids would've been even more intense to try to soften the Japanese defenses before we tried landing our troops on their beaches. Before the atomic bombs were dropped, casualty estimates for an Allied invasion of Japan were in the millions for the Japanese (many of which would've been civilians) and hundreds of thousands of Allied troops. And if the atomic bombs weren't dropped on Japan, its a realistic possibility that someone would've been nuked in the time after. Seeing how bad the fallout was and mutually assured destruction arguably kept the US and USSR from ever getting into a direct war with each other.
We would have been targeting civilians?
Posted on 8/14/20 at 10:51 am to CapstoneGrad06
quote:
Yes. Because civilians don’t die by any other way during urban combat.
Intentionally targeting is separate though. Are you not able to distinguish between the two?
quote:
Nevermind the Japanese plans to use civilians to repel any invasion.
Well, they would have been combatants at that point, wouldn't they?
Posted on 8/14/20 at 10:52 am to TideCPA
quote:
More Okinawan civilians died in the battle of Okinawa than Japanese and US soldiers combined, caught in the crossfire with no way to escape. The story wouldn't have been any different in a land invasion of Japan.
OK.
Posted on 8/14/20 at 10:52 am to Jake88
quote:
Here's a fool who has the luxury of passing judgment while sitting on his fat arse 75 years removed from a huge decision. You have no insight into how stupid and small you sound right now.
quote:
“We have discovered the most terrible bomb in the history of the world …”
“This weapon is to be used against Japan between now and August 10th. I have told the Sec. of War, Mr. Stimson, to use it so that military objectives and soldiers and sailors are the target and not women and children. Even if the Japs are savages, ruthless, merciless and fanatic, we as the leader of the world for the common welfare cannot drop that terrible bomb on the old capital or the new.
“He and I are in accord. The target will be a purely military one and we will issue a warning statement asking the Japs to surrender and save lives. I’m sure they will not do that but we will have given them the chance. “
“It is certainly a good thing that Hitler’s crowd or Stalin’s did not discover this atomic bomb,” Truman said. “It seems to me the most terrible thing ever discovered, but it can be made the most useful.”
Seems Harry S. Truman passed judgement on himself. He soon changed his mind and did exactly the opposite of what he believed to be right. He even came out afterwards and said he chose the lives of our soldiers over the live of their civilians.
Posted on 8/14/20 at 10:52 am to Jake88
quote:
You have no insight into how stupid and small you sound right now.
The error is much deeper than what you suggest.
He not only has no insight.. he as done no research into the facts of the circumstances that lead to the decision to drop the bombs. He ignores the fact that Japan refused to surrender after the 1st bomb. It also ignores the fact there was an attempted coup by a portion of Japan's leadership that wanted to continue to fight even after the 2nd bomb.
It also ignores the decimation to German populace and infrastructure as a result of the endless bombing by allied forces during the latter years of the war.
This massive ignorance on behalf of the poster is compounded by their self-assurance of him being right.
There is no question at all with anyone that truly understands what horror, death and destruction was avoided on both sides by the dropping of those two bombs.
Posted on 8/14/20 at 10:54 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
Intentionally targeting is separate though. Are you not able to distinguish between the two?
It really doesn't matter. Because in both theaters of the war, all combatants directly targeted civilians.
The Allies just generally did so through strategic bombing of German and Japanese cities, which the Axis also did. However, Japan and Germany also liked to treat conquered civilian populations as lesser humans because of their ideological views on race, etc.
Posted on 8/14/20 at 10:55 am to FightingTigers138
quote:
He soon changed his mind and did exactly the opposite of what he believed to be right. He even came out afterwards and said he chose the lives of our soldiers over the live of their civilians.
It was a realpolitik decision. At least he owned it.
ETA: Why are you making this thread about the bombs, when that is not what V-J day is? The bombs were dropped 8/6 and 8/9. The decision to drop the bombs is certainly worth discussion and debate, but this isn't really for this thread.
This post was edited on 8/14/20 at 10:59 am
Posted on 8/14/20 at 10:56 am to FightingTigers138
Check out Dresden.
If the allies lost, would have been tried as war criminals...no doubt, that’s every war.. But we won.
If the allies lost, would have been tried as war criminals...no doubt, that’s every war.. But we won.
This post was edited on 8/14/20 at 10:58 am
Posted on 8/14/20 at 11:00 am to FightingTigers138
quote:
Yes, let's celebrate a drunken gambler (Truman), killing an enormous number of innocent civilians. Which caused birth defects for several generations after. What a great moment in history.
That's war, princess. Would've been way more deaths if those bombs weren't dropped.
Posted on 8/14/20 at 11:03 am to Tiger Prawn
quote:
Not directly, but Allied bombing campaigns throughout the war were leveling entire cities. They didn't have modern guided bombs to hit military targets with precision accuracy. If you wanted the raids to be effective, carpet bombing the whole area was the strategy....which led to a lot of civilian casualties. And if we had to prepare for an invasion of the Japanese mainland, those bombing raids would've been even more intense to try to soften the Japanese defenses before we tried landing our troops on their beaches. Before the atomic bombs were dropped, casualty estimates for an Allied invasion of Japan were in the millions for the Japanese (many of which would've been civilians) and hundreds of thousands of Allied troops. And if the atomic bombs weren't dropped on Japan, its a realistic possibility that someone would've been nuked in the time after. Seeing how bad the fallout was and mutually assured destruction arguably kept the US and USSR from ever getting into a direct war with each other.
This was an actual thought by our government. It's the most "God Complex" idea I can fathom.
Posted on 8/14/20 at 11:05 am to Indefatigable
quote:
Why are you making this thread about the bombs, when that is not what V-J day is? The bombs were dropped 8/6 and 8/9. The decision to drop the bombs is certainly worth discussion and debate, but this isn't really for this thread.
Sorry, happy V-J Day.
Posted on 8/14/20 at 11:08 am to FightingTigers138
quote:
This was an actual thought by our government. It's the most "God Complex" idea I can fathom.
It is very easy to make that assessment with 75 years of hindsight. Only a handful of people could even conceptualize the type of damage that bomb could do, and even less people had witnessed it. The generational nature of the effects of the weapons were totally unknown at the time. You cannot totally remove all context from historical decisions. I guess you can, but its silly and portrays a very flawed understanding of the decision to drop the bombs and all that went into it.
Posted on 8/14/20 at 11:24 am to ItzMe1972
Why do you guys insist on feeding the troll?
Posted on 8/14/20 at 11:29 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:If we invaded, every single man, woman, and child in Japan would have had a gun and would be fighting
We would have been targeting civilians?
So yes, we would have been targeting everyone
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