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2
Posted on 6/4/24 at 2:08 pm to geauxtigers87
Another fun fact: George Gay was an American Indian.
In today's victimverse, it would be inconceivable to the wokeists to wrap their heads around native Americans fighting for whitey, but they did, and in considerable numbers. One of the marines raising the flag in the immortal picture on Iwo was a native American as well.
In today's victimverse, it would be inconceivable to the wokeists to wrap their heads around native Americans fighting for whitey, but they did, and in considerable numbers. One of the marines raising the flag in the immortal picture on Iwo was a native American as well.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 2:23 pm to geauxtigers87
quote:
everyone thinks Gay was the only survivor but there was 1, maybe 2 others
Yep, 2 others
The confusion comes from the fact that Earnest and Ferrier (in the same brand new Avenger, the only one sent against the Japanese that day that survived) took off from Midway with Fieberling (ostensibly with the 26s and 17s), while the others (the Devastators) launched from Hornet with Waldron.
Also, Gay's story is relatively unique in that he (alone of Waldroun's component) survived, was in the water very early and witnessed many of the key events of the disjointed and ultimately overwhelming in a "death by a thousand cuts" attack on the Kido Butai.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 2:25 pm to doubleb
quote:
You can’t leave off the Battle of Britain.
Very true. Thank god the Germans stopped bombing the airfields
Posted on 6/4/24 at 2:27 pm to Ace Midnight
Posted on 6/4/24 at 2:27 pm to Ace Midnight
I didn’t think any of the torpedoes during the battle of midway ever hit a carrier?
Posted on 6/4/24 at 2:29 pm to jeffsdad
quote:
I didn’t think any of the torpedoes during the battle of midway ever hit a carrier?
Not just carriers either---there were no torpedo hits at all on the US side.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 2:36 pm to Ace Midnight
Pensacola Navy Air Museum is a great place. This SBD is on display and was at the Midway battle. I was able to touch it and the patched bullet holes. In the background is a PBY which is the type of patrol plane that spotted the fleet. (Also the type of plane that rescued my Dad after being shot down).
Posted on 6/4/24 at 3:03 pm to Indefatigable
quote:
Not just carriers either---there were no torpedo hits at all on the US side.
I think a flying boat hit an oil tanker during the battle with a torp. But, the larger point remains, the heroic actions of the torpedo planes, most of which were destroyed and most of their crews lost in the battle would likely not have resulted in any significant damage to the Japanese warships, with the Mk-13 in the condition it was in. The Mk-14 on the subs weren't significantly better.
The U.S. had a serious torpedo issue at the start of the war that did not get better for over a year after Midway (effective modifications to the Mk-13 for aerial use and torpedo boats, ultimately the implementation of the Mk-18 for subs).
Posted on 6/4/24 at 3:11 pm to tigeraddict
quote:
even after Midway, Halsey was still very protective of his carriers as he was still at a disadvantage vs land air (truk/rabal) that he only allowed the carriers to protect the Guadalcanal landings for 72 hrs before withdrawing. had the 4 fleet carriers Japan lost at Midway been available, Halsey doest risk the landings.
Halsey wasn't in charge during the landing operations - which a poster correctly points out earlier in this thread.
I'd disagree wholeheartedly though about Halsey being protective with the carriers. Battle of the Santa Cruz Islands showed that Halsey was the exact opposite of protective. He wanted to hit the Japanese and grind them down and lost Hornet in the process.
When only Enterprise was left vs the remaining Japanese carrier force, Halsey threw USS Washington and USS South Dakota into the narrow waters of the Solomons to intercept the Japanese heavies and almost lost South Dakota in the process.
I tend to agree that Midway was A turning point. I think a lot of the outcome of Midway came down to accidental luck, similar to Coral Sea. The Solomon Islands campaign came down to sheer willpower and the allied forces showed they weren't backing down from a fight no matter the cost and put the Japanese on permanent defense like you mentioned. It was THE defining campaign of the war in the Pacific but can't necessarily be narrowed down to ONE dramatic battle like Midway can.
FDR had promised that the US was going "Europe first" to all of the allies and ended up diverting resources away for the Solomons campaign and at on point was sending more aircraft to the pacific for the campaign than to the ETO. If they lose in the Solomons I think that Australia has to be abandoned as a base of operations and the Japanese are free to go on offensives again.
This post was edited on 6/4/24 at 3:16 pm
Posted on 6/4/24 at 3:11 pm to Czechessential
Discussing the brass nuts those dive bombers had, Herman Wouk's War and Remembrance discusses the fictional Henry brother dying as a dive bomber at Midway. A large part of those books were written with such a nervous energy, yet that part of the book was written like the event was a foregone conclusion. We just had to be told about it.
Those Wouk books are the only reason I know so much about WW2. Such great reads.
Those Wouk books are the only reason I know so much about WW2. Such great reads.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 3:16 pm to TigerHornII
quote:
Another fun fact: George Gay was an American Indian.
Waldron was a Sioux also.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 3:19 pm to Mstate
quote:
Even with those shitty torpedos we had
The torpedo bombers were massacred. And as you say, their torpedoes wouldn't have detonated anyhow.
It was the diver bombing squadrons that put 500 pounders through their wooden decks. And pierced non armored fuel and bomb magazines below deck.
Those Akagi class carriers were death traps.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 3:58 pm to Darth_Vader
quote:
But, if we’re talking true turning points of the war, the turning point was not Midway, it was the Solomons. Midway paved the way for the turning point. But it wasn’t the actual turning point.
It seems to me it’s all semantics, with an American defeat at Midway we don’t go on the offensive as you stated; thus the pivotal point is Midway.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 4:01 pm to doubleb
The turning point was when Yamato failed to catch the American carriers in port at Pearl Harbor.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 4:12 pm to Jim Rockford
Based on Midway at the time of the battle were six of the newest torpedo bombers the Grumman TBF Avenger , a 6-ship detachment from VT-8 USS Hornet, and they fared just as poorly as they're slower outmoded replacements the Devastators because they too went in with no fighter coverage and I believe only one made it back to Midway with a dead Gunner.
Henderson field on Guadalcanal was named after Major Lofton Henderson a Marine Corps dive bomber pilot/C.O. of VMSB-241 based on Midway. He won the Navy Cross posthumously that day.
Henderson field on Guadalcanal was named after Major Lofton Henderson a Marine Corps dive bomber pilot/C.O. of VMSB-241 based on Midway. He won the Navy Cross posthumously that day.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 4:17 pm to rmnldr
quote:
they lose in the Solomons I think that Australia has to be abandoned as a base of operations and the Japanese are free to go on offensives again.
Ehh, I'm not sure if we have to abandon Australia. Japanese fleet (kido butai in particular) is still crippled from midway either way. Japanese were in no position to go on a major offensive again. If anything the war in the pacific is prolonged further
Posted on 6/4/24 at 4:24 pm to choppadocta
The sacrifice of the torpedo bomber squadron was not in vain. The Japanese had to be on the alert. They were launching and landing combat air patrol all morning which resulted in them not being able to launch their attack force.
Also, the Chikuma #1 float plane (I believe) somehow failed to spot Fletcher’s force very early that morning despite being in the exact vicinity of the carrier force.
Also, the Chikuma #1 float plane (I believe) somehow failed to spot Fletcher’s force very early that morning despite being in the exact vicinity of the carrier force.
Posted on 6/4/24 at 4:26 pm to Ace Midnight
For those still following his thread, here is a picture of Dusty Kleiss. He was one of two pilots that hit multiple carriers that famous day. I read his autobiography recently.
After the war, he was a high school math teacher. I wonder if his students ever asked him what he did in the war.
LINK
After the war, he was a high school math teacher. I wonder if his students ever asked him what he did in the war.
LINK
This post was edited on 6/4/24 at 4:28 pm
Posted on 6/4/24 at 4:28 pm to sledgehammer
Nagumo and the Japanese leadership in general were kept off balance by the near constant attacks from the Americans. Midway strikes, torpedo strikes, B-17, B-26 all frayed the Japanese nerves. None of those American attacks were in vain.
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