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re: Is this how atheists think Christianity started?
Posted on 3/29/26 at 11:54 am to Joshjrn
Posted on 3/29/26 at 11:54 am to Joshjrn
quote:
If you had personally witnessed the miracles I posted, including personally walking on water yourself, and had been told to your face by the miracle worker himself that if you denied him on earth, you would face eternal torment, do you believe that’s what you would have done?
You’ve had some good post in this thread… but my pushback would be just to play devils advocate… it seems you put too much stock into the miracles and not the overall message… it’s evident the stories are parables…
2
Posted on 3/29/26 at 11:55 am to lepdagod
quote:
it’s evident the stories are parables…
So you’re not a believer?
Posted on 3/29/26 at 11:57 am to Joshjrn
quote:
No one on the events described act rationally; they all act the way the morality play needs them to act to make its point.
A couple of y’all have made this point like it’s a a revelation… of course they do… I don’t think no one considers the Bible a historical document
Posted on 3/29/26 at 11:57 am to lepdagod
quote:
I don’t think no one considers the Bible a historical document
Absolutely. Many do. Including many posters on this board.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 11:58 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
So you’re not a believer?
In the message not necessarily the miracles
Posted on 3/29/26 at 11:59 am to lepdagod
quote:
You’ve had some good post in this thread… but my pushback would be just to play devils advocate… it seems you put too much stock into the miracles and not the overall message… it’s evident the stories are parables…
If the gospel stories are just parables, then we shouldn’t put any stock in the stories of the subsequent lives and deaths of the apostles, outside of secular historical record, of which there is little to none. As they are likely to simply be parables as well.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 11:59 am to Mo Jeaux
Posted on 3/29/26 at 11:59 am to Mo Jeaux
quote:
So you’re not a believer?
Many people who profess to believe every religion are actually better described as agnostic.
It's why they can ignore all the directives of their various religions they find inconvenient.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 12:07 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
then we shouldn’t put any stock in the stories of the subsequent lives and deaths of the apostles, outside of secular historical record
That’s two different things again… the message trying to be conveyed in the parable vs the actual man in his everyday life… one is one thing …the other one is another thing
Posted on 3/29/26 at 12:08 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
Christmas being when it is is obviously just trying to slot itself into the pagan calendar
That's partly true, but there was another reason for placing it in December. There was an ancient Jewish belief that prophets died on the anniversary of their conception. If Jesus died on the anniversary of his conception, 9 months later would put his birthday in December.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 12:14 pm to SlowFlowPro
Lol sorry I typed that fast without proofreading like I wanted. I’m about to be outside all day working in the yard.
But what I was trying to say is the atheist I encounter whether it be my friends or people at a party, they want to just live their own life, for them. Have no accountability for their actions or what they choose to do. Whether it be how they treat people, how they talk, drugs/alcohol, who they sleep with, etc. Not at all saying atheist are bad people. Hell, I know people who call themselves Christians who behave this way. They have this sort of “I’m not simple minded like you, I have such a better take on life.”
I’m about to work outside before the rain. I’ll hop on tonight to respond. Hope you have a good day man.
But what I was trying to say is the atheist I encounter whether it be my friends or people at a party, they want to just live their own life, for them. Have no accountability for their actions or what they choose to do. Whether it be how they treat people, how they talk, drugs/alcohol, who they sleep with, etc. Not at all saying atheist are bad people. Hell, I know people who call themselves Christians who behave this way. They have this sort of “I’m not simple minded like you, I have such a better take on life.”
I’m about to work outside before the rain. I’ll hop on tonight to respond. Hope you have a good day man.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 12:43 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
I'm asking you if you believe Peter's actions (and inaction) in the Gospels after Jesus' arrest and crucifixion follow what you would expect a rational adult human being to do after they had spent years witnessing, and sometimes being an actual part of, miracles performed by a man who told them to their faces that, if they denied him on Earth, he would deny them in heaven.
We tend to overlook how cruel and sadistic punishments were during that period. Execution was rarely quick; torture came first. Every one of these men had witnessed it firsthand. Given how weak people can be under extreme duress, I really don’t know what I would have done.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 12:53 pm to cssamerican
quote:
We tend to overlook how cruel and sadistic punishments were during that period. Execution was rarely quick; torture came first. Every one of these men had witnessed it firsthand. Given how weak people can be under extreme duress, I really don’t know what I would have done.
I think this is why I tend to have such a hard time understanding many Christians. If Christians believe what they claim to believe, the question should be a no brainer: temporary pain in return for eternal bliss. And if the apostles can't reasonably be expected to believe after everything they saw firsthand, I'm not sure how anyone can reasonably believe anything at all. And the reality is that, if one believes the Gospels, the apostles had absolutely zero faith or belief whatsoever, in spite of the fact that they were given orders of magnitude more evidence than the average modern person could ever dream of having.
It's not uncommon in online discussions for someone to ask me what it would take for me to believe in god/Christianity/etc. A common ask is whether I would believe if I personally witnessed a miracle. Yet, the apostles allegedly all witnessed miracle after miracle, and yet, they still didn't believe. Strange when one really thinks of it, don't you think?
Posted on 3/29/26 at 1:19 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
There is little to no non-Biblical historical evidence for the "post-resurrection" lives of the overwhelming majority of the apostles.
That is incorrect. There were many books written by scholars and early Christians in the next couple hundred years after the resurrection of Christ. I have a book that are scribed lectures given by Origen of Alexandria while he taught at the Christian School of Caesarea that he founded sometime in early 200 AD. There are many other books you can find that were written earlier than that where the writings of the New Testament and the people are the subject. That just happens to be one that I bought and have studied. Even non-Christian historians like Josephus discuss Jesus and the disciples.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 1:23 pm to Ramblin Wreck
quote:
That is incorrect. There were many books written by scholars and early Christians in the next couple hundred years after the resurrection of Christ. I have a book that are scribed lectures given by Origen of Alexandria while he taught at the Christian School of Caesarea that he founded sometime in early 200 AD. There are many other books you can find that were written earlier than that where the writings of the New Testament and the people are the subject. That just happens to be one that I bought and have studied. Even non-Christian historians like Josephus discuss Jesus and the disciples.
200AD is hardly a contemporary account of the lives of the apostles, so I'm not sure you can cite that as secular evidence. Do you have any citations for secular contemporary accounts of the lives and martyrdom of the apostles?
And be careful when you cite to Josephus that you limit those citations to the original, not to the later (arguably fraudulent) additions.
This post was edited on 3/29/26 at 1:25 pm
Posted on 3/29/26 at 1:37 pm to dallastiger55
You claim to be Christian but reject Holy Scripture?
Posted on 3/29/26 at 1:39 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
Do you have any citations for secular contemporary accounts of the lives and martyrdom of the apostles?
There are plenty. Just google the names of the early church fathers and you can spend all afternoon clicking on the names of their mentors in wikipedia and such going further back and seeing lists of the books they wrote. Eusebius is even later but wrote a history of the church around 326 AD and you can buy a modern translation of it. It list numerous references and direct quotes from extremely early texts. It is a shame that people aren’t aware of the volume of early history and texts. I’m protestant and blame a lot of that on protestants being afraid to study or acknowledge any writings written between the New Testament letters and Martin Luther. I would give you further examples but I told my 82 year old Mom I was coming over this afternoon to mow her lawn.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 1:42 pm to Ramblin Wreck
quote:
There are plenty. Just google the names of the early church fathers and you can spend all afternoon clicking on the names of their mentors in wikipedia and such going further back and seeing lists of the books they wrote. Eusebius is even later but wrote a history of the church around 326 AD and you can buy a modern translation of it. It list numerous references and direct quotes from extremely early texts. It is a shame that people aren’t aware of the volume of early history and texts. I’m protestant and blame a lot of that on protestants being afraid to study or acknowledge any writings written between the New Testament letters and Martin Luther. I would give you further examples but I told my 82 year old Mom I was coming over this afternoon to mow her lawn.
I don’t know that early church fathers would constitute secular authorities. If you have any specific citations to contemporary secular authorities, I would be happy to look into them. Enjoy your time with your mom.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 1:45 pm to Joshjrn
There are a bunch of great podcasts on the historicity of Jesus and also Christianity.
Mark I believe is the earliest of the gospels and it was believed to be written in 140 AD. If you put Christ’s death at 33 AD, that’s a lot of time in between the actual events and the writing of the first hand account.
Also, at the time, I believe less 10% of the population of the world could even read. Meaning that most of if not all of what was known about Christ from 33 to 140 AD was certainly oral tradition, not written accounts that were lost.
That doesn’t make it not true, but it does require quite a bit of faith. Imagine how much a story changes in a day from one person to another, then try 100+ years, which was certainly 3 or 4 generations of people back then.
Mark I believe is the earliest of the gospels and it was believed to be written in 140 AD. If you put Christ’s death at 33 AD, that’s a lot of time in between the actual events and the writing of the first hand account.
Also, at the time, I believe less 10% of the population of the world could even read. Meaning that most of if not all of what was known about Christ from 33 to 140 AD was certainly oral tradition, not written accounts that were lost.
That doesn’t make it not true, but it does require quite a bit of faith. Imagine how much a story changes in a day from one person to another, then try 100+ years, which was certainly 3 or 4 generations of people back then.
Posted on 3/29/26 at 1:52 pm to Joshjrn
quote:
I don’t know that early church fathers would constitute secular authorities
I do remember that Eusebius’ history includes a lot of direct quotes from Josephus, but I don’t know how early the writings of Josephus were possibly modified.
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