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Message
re: Hydrogen Vehicles
Posted on 2/12/24 at 4:21 am to billjamin
Posted on 2/12/24 at 4:21 am to billjamin
quote:
It’s a solid energy source but handling, transport, and infrastructure will keep it from being anything significant for a long time.
“A long time”? Twenty years will see a huge increase in hydrogen vehicles or EVs. If EVs can solve the range and recharge issues (doubtful) then they are far superior to any ICE vehicles. If not, it will be hydrogen fuel cells powering vehicles.
My company is working on lots of hydrogen plants for several clients. Plug Power is on the bleeding edge and is suffering accordingly, but they have made huge progress in developing plants and creating the eco-system and supply chain for more plants.
2
Posted on 2/12/24 at 8:27 am to Auburn1968
quote:
1. Handling hydrogen was done routinely from the 1850's up until the mid-1950's in the form of Town Gas or coal gas. Super pressures are not some requirement.
Wrong. If gasified and cracked it become syngas which is hydrogen and carbon monoxide with CO2 as byproduct, along with ash.
Hydrogen is the smallest molecule, it does not make a visible flame and ignites in air. In a mixture with natural gas it has achieved 15% in real world application, not the theoretical 20%. That came directly from the head of a small EPC firm which has built out demonstration municipal systems in the Northern US. Per him, it's a scam but there is so much money being thrown around his company got involved.
Many explosions in refineries are caused by hydrogen leaks.
Not much hydrogen can be stored without being under high pressure, unless liquified and that takes a lot of energy to liquify. A hydrogen compressor needs to have nitrogen purge to keep from exploding. The API regs call for never higher than 300 Deg F.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 9:04 am to Penrod
quote:
“A long time”? Twenty years will see a huge increase in hydrogen vehicles or EVs. If EVs can solve the range and recharge issues (doubtful) then they are far superior to any ICE vehicles. If not, it will be hydrogen fuel cells powering vehicles.
I don't think we'll see wide spread hydrogen passenger vehicles in 20 years. There are too many hurdles to overcome to build out the infrastructure. We can barely keep out natural gas infrastructure together and it's basically help together with JB weld and duct tape. I think we'll see it adopted as an energy source for more centralized power demands and maybe some local commercial vehicles where it would make sense to build out a fueling station.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 9:06 am to Lonnie Utah
Here's one....
---the Hindenberg didn't use hydrogen for fuel
---the Hindenberg didn't use hydrogen for fuel
Posted on 2/12/24 at 9:06 am to Auburn1968
You obviously have never dealt with hydrogen. I have.
FWIW, gas works used to produce town gas from coal was in major cities in the South too. The old pipes remain in homes of New Orleans built in the early 1900's.
On a humorous note, the cousin of one of my wife's ancestors was the first home in New Orleans to have both town gas and electricity for light. It took 7 years to build and is on St. Charles Ave. He was also the first person arrested in violation of the Mann Act, and first case heard before SCOTUS. He lost. Something about transporting white women to across the state line to Pearl River, MS for illegal or immoral purposes.
FWIW, gas works used to produce town gas from coal was in major cities in the South too. The old pipes remain in homes of New Orleans built in the early 1900's.
On a humorous note, the cousin of one of my wife's ancestors was the first home in New Orleans to have both town gas and electricity for light. It took 7 years to build and is on St. Charles Ave. He was also the first person arrested in violation of the Mann Act, and first case heard before SCOTUS. He lost. Something about transporting white women to across the state line to Pearl River, MS for illegal or immoral purposes.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 9:09 am to Auburn1968
Due to energy density, hydrogen is not up to the gasoline/diesel standards (safety included) that we are used to.
Here is a good explanation:
The Unfortunate Truth About Toyota's Hydrogen V8 Engine
Here is a good explanation:
The Unfortunate Truth About Toyota's Hydrogen V8 Engine
This post was edited on 2/12/24 at 9:12 am
Posted on 2/12/24 at 9:09 am to cypresstiger
quote:
Here's one....
---the Hindenberg didn't use hydrogen for fuel
No but it was filled with more than 7 million cubic feet of hydrogen so I'm not sure what point you are trying to make.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 9:18 am to GumboPot
quote:
Due to energy density, hydrogen is not up to the gasoline/diesel standards (safety included) that we are used to.
quote:
How volatile is hydrogen compared to gasoline?
Hydrogen can be explosive with oxygen concentrations between 18 and 59 percent while gasoline can be explosive at oxygen concentrations between 1 and 3 percent. This means that gasoline has greater risk for explosion than hydrogen for any given environment with oxygen.
I have read mixed results and I have worked in a plant that had a hydrogen unit with no problems.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 9:33 am to Lonnie Utah
Yall do know that gasoline is also dangerously flammable, right?
Posted on 2/12/24 at 9:40 am to BruslyTiger
quote:
I have read mixed results and I have worked in a plant that had a hydrogen unit with no problems.
Right. A highly controlled environment.
Now in order to get the energy density to some useful level hydrogen as to be cryogenically compressed into a liquid. Now what happens when a hydrogen car with liquid hydrogen is sitting in your garage unused for 24 hours or so? The pressure is going to increase in your tank as the hydrogen boils and the tank will have to be designed with a relieve valve, releasing hydrogen gas into your garage...not good.
The point is, infrastructure and vehicle design to use hydrogen is a lot more capital intensive than using fuels that are liquid at normal ambient temperatures.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 9:43 am to chryso
quote:
Yall do know that gasoline is also dangerously flammable, right?
It's cheap to handle gasoline safely. It's very expensive to handle hydrogen (at an energy density close to gasoline) safely.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 9:49 am to GumboPot
quote:
Now in order to get the energy density to some useful level hydrogen as to be cryogenically compressed into a liquid. Now what happens when a hydrogen car with liquid hydrogen is sitting in your garage unused for 24 hours or so? The pressure is going to increase in your tank as the hydrogen boils and the tank will have to be designed with a relieve valve, releasing hydrogen gas into your garage...not good.
Also, in high pressure tube type pressure vessels like helium is stored. You can buy trailers with banks of tube tanks rated for above 2500 psig.
FWIW, the chemical definition of volatile is "evaporates readily." Afterall, it's the vapor which burn, not the liquid.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 11:09 am to Lonnie Utah
quote:
Here's one....
Now show a photo of one of those explosions at a petrochemical plant in Texas that seem to happen every week.
This post was edited on 2/12/24 at 12:45 pm
Posted on 2/12/24 at 11:41 am to billjamin
quote:
I don't think we'll see wide spread hydrogen passenger vehicles in 20 years. There are too many hurdles to overcome to build out the infrastructure.
Refueling stations alone will prevent hydrogen from ever being viable for private, commuter vehicles. Given how people already complain about EV chargers and the lack (but growing number) of places to charge, I'm not sure how people think we're going to suddenly pop up hydrogen stations in the numbers that would be needed. And the lack of home refueling as an option puts it behind EVs. Not sure why people are so hellbent on getting around EVs to the point that this is what they come up with.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 11:42 am to Lonnie Utah
The issue with hydrogen has been that it is highly corrosive IIRC
Posted on 2/12/24 at 11:52 am to BruslyTiger
quote:
How volatile is hydrogen compared to gasoline? Hydrogen can be explosive with oxygen concentrations between 18 and 59 percent while gasoline can be explosive at oxygen concentrations between 1 and 3 percent. This means that gasoline has greater risk for explosion than hydrogen for any given environment with oxygen.
Well that’s a bold (and completely false) claim.
Greater risk in any given environment? Really? How about an environment with a 50% fuel/air mixture?
Upper explosive limits are a thing, and gasoline actually has a fairly narrow explosive range. The explosive range for hydrogen is much wider.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 12:15 pm to billjamin
quote:
It’s a solid energy source but handling, transport, and infrastructure will keep it from being anything significant for a long time.
Except for the fact that BMW has a consumer vehicle out with hydrogen engine.
Infrastructure is nothing to get. Relative to electric, its a simple add on/conversion for existing stations.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 12:17 pm to S1C EM
quote:
Not sure why people are so hellbent on getting around EVs to the point that this is what they come up with.
What? Is this a serious question? EVs are a disaster in so many ways. That fad will die until something other than mined lithium is used for storage.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 12:22 pm to GumboPot
quote:
The point is, infrastructure and vehicle design to use hydrogen is a lot more capital intensive than using fuels that are liquid at normal ambient temperatures.
I think we are more likely to see widespread adoption of ammonia fuel cells than hydrogen fuel cells. I know there’s been a lot of talk in recent years about a hydrogen-ammonia economy, where liquid ammonia is converted to hydrogen at the point of sale. I don’t see it, though. There’s already a fair amount of research going into ammonia fuel cells which are a more realistic proposition IMO.
That said, even with ammonia I’m still skeptical of widespread adoption for normal commuter vehicles (e.g. non-fleet). Two applications where I do think hydrogen and/or ammonia might be the future are:
1. Commercial marine.
2. Utility-scale energy storage.
Time will tell.
Posted on 2/12/24 at 12:38 pm to Auburn1968
So we won’t build a new reactor to produce electricity but we have plans to build them to produce hydrogen?
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