re: Hunting Hitler Question

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It does in some ways but they make grand assumptions based of a gain of one fact. Hitler died in Germany is accepted native because the preponderance of evidence supports that conclusion. Notice how they always pose the conclusion in this show and the oak island as a question or this could have happened. That is poor history.

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I agree with your overall point that most of it is just tin foil hat nonsense, however I wouldn't say it is poor history. Anyway, they are investigators testing a hypothesis, not historians (most of the team).

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Curse of Oak Island

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That show is cursed. That older brother duping the younger one out of all that money to dig up oak island is pretty funny though. They've found one spanish doubloon in like 3 years.

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I've only watched the 1st three episodes but would answer 'yes' to your question of whether it sounds like Hitler is BSing. If he had the resources, path (underground tunnels), and so many perfect destinations (such as Argentina), then those words would be what I expect if he intended to flee.

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If if were a skiff, we'd all take a boat ride.

Have you studied Hitler's psychology? His political ideology? His moral convictions and his view of honor? Have you read interviews with people who knew him well and discussed him? Have you read his speeches or Mein Kampf? If you had, you'd see how ridiculous it sounds to suggest that his last political testament was a farce to cover for some escape to South America.

It's absolutely absurd. I think the majority of people that get taken in by these shows are people that aren't well studied on the subject matter, which is the vast majority of the population. By presenting certain information in a certain way and omitting other information and context, these shows can make something sound plausible to those not informed enough to recognize what is being contextually omitted.

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I also agree that the History channel is more about making money than true history. So far in this particular series, it seems like they are just asking questions (determining if possible) rather than making declarations. Also, even if Hitler died as history says, there is a lot of other interesting details in Hunting Hitler.

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I haven't watched this one, but I have seen programs on this subject matter before. There was absolutely a program for smuggling former Nazis out of Europe and into South America to hide from international retribution, so they will undoubtedly have plenty of avenues to point to secretive escape routes and destinations, which will allow them to vaguely suggest possible links to a theoretical Hitler escape. Just like Ancient Aliens loves to ask, "Is it possible..." when making pure conjecture appear as if it is more than just that.

Isn't it kind of dumb to try and act if Hitler was capable of rational behavior at that late date?

Wasn't he still trying to command armies that existed only on paper, and he wasn't demonstrating in any way that he was dealing with reality?

So what if he was lining up a replacement for Himmler.

The man was a drug addict. He was full of narcotics, he was very ill, and he wasn't acting rationally at all.

The russians captured the bodies and sent "Hitlers" back to Russia for autopsy. They still have the skull.

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Not relevant to what happened to Hitler.

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Yes, it is. Particularly when you have suggested that Hitler's staff and inner circle were complicit in the escape. Their own decisions regarding their fate must, therefore, have occurred in the context of aiding the endeavor.

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So you acknowledge he had many opportunities. Do you claim he did not recognize them? Do you claim that having recognized opportunities that he would not take advantage of any of them at all? Do you acknowledge the fact that an escape takes time to plan and prepare for?
Your question invites scrutiny into your explanation, not mine.

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Yes, I acknowledge that had Hitler been so inclined to leave Berlin, he had opportunities.These opportunities dwindled as the Battle of Berlin advanced. And yes, that he was aware of them. And yes, that they would need to be prepared for. Sooo...what is your point here?

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So, you can find no other way he could leave a bunker than with some lady that flew in and flew out?

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Not what I said.

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As a matter of fact, since she was flying in the replacement for Himmler who Hitler fired for communicating with the Allies, the plane was tracked and the Soviet Army tried to shoot it down.

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I'm well aware. The general was wounded on the flight in. I think it goes without saying that flying a Fieseler Storch into the heart of Berlin while it was under complete Soviet siege was highly dangerous and that the plane would take ground fire. There's no significance in you pointing this out. It is common sense.

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If Hitler planned to kill himself in Berlin, it would be extremely odd for him to take great interest in directing Himmler's replacement to see to it that Himmler was punished, or to even name a replacement for Himmler so late in the war and so close to Hitler's alleged suicide.

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I flatly reject your premise. I find it not odd in the least bit. And the general was not Himmler's replacement. You can read his last political testament I posted on page 1 where you can clearly see Himmler's replacement was Gauleiter Karl Hanke.

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With suicide, Hitler clearly would never get confirmation that such action was completed and indeed he did not get confirmation if you go by the date Himmler fled, Himmler was captured by the Allies and by Hitler's alleged suicide.

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None of this makes a valid argument at all. In fact, it makes no sense at all. "Uhh, Hitler coundn't have ordered Himmler's punishment and then killed himself prior to getting confirmation!" Uhh, yes, he could have.

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Further, that Hitler ordered air attacks against the Soviets as Hanna left Berlin, rather than giving instructions on how to preserve the Reich after surrender or something else demonstrating his acknowledgment the war was lost, is also odd

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You are projecting onto Hitler the notion that knowledge of the war being lost conferred a desire for capitulation to the enemy. It didn't. Again, read the testament. And nothing in there reflects new or different attitudes from Hitler on the subject. He was very consistent that resistance until death was the proper course of action. He openly called for continued resistance and obedience to the new government.

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Are you refuting my assertion that the Nazi's engaged in deep lies, propaganda, and misdirection? And no, I'm not using anything as both a blanket excuse and explanation for stuff I put forward.

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I'm suggesting that you are hiding behind the notion of "Nazi lies" to cover for the fact that you have no substantive argument outside of vague conjecture.

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Your profound ignorance of the dynamics surrounding Hanna Reitsch's flight in and out of Berlin is evidence that you don't know what you're talking about and have no understanding here at all.

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What was my ignorance exactly? This coming from the fellow who says Reitsch flew in Himmler's replacement.

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May God have mercy on the souls of your children for having to be taught by you.

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Yeah, they're really fricked. They'll believe that Hitler shot himself in the bunker at the end of WWII, just like every other credentialed historian in the world.

Miscreants this will make them for sure!

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Isn't it kind of dumb to try and act if Hitler was capable of rational behavior at that late date?

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Rational is highly dependent on perspective and context. Rational considering he spun up Germany to launch a world war, rational considering he sought to exterminate an entire race?
All things considered, you have to find consistency here, not so much rationality because that will be so variable by each person's judgment.

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Wasn't he still trying to command armies that existed only on paper, and he wasn't demonstrating in any way that he was dealing with reality?

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No. He was trying to consolidate and reorganize them. Major difference.

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So what if he was lining up a replacement for Himmler.

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He didn't line up a replacement. He fired Himmler and replaced him with the guy on Reitsch's plane. And he provided orders to that guy.

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The man was a drug addict. He was full of narcotics, he was very ill, and he wasn't acting rationally at all.

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Society is filled with drug addicts that attain deep insight and run their daily lives very well. This includes people on narcotics. Yes, he was ill. It may have compromised rationality. It may have made him even more desperate, or may not have affected him at all. No one wants to advance the same arguments against the Japanese and they were full on suicidal. Also, Hanna Reitsch had recommended a suicide force. Do you wish to question her rationality as well?
Totally subjective and void of the context as I mentioned above.

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Yes, it is. Particularly when you have suggested that Hitler's staff and inner circle were complicit in the escape. Their own decisions regarding their fate must, therefore, have occurred in the context of aiding the endeavor.

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I did not suggest they were complicit. I said they dared not go against him or act as though they didn't support him because of how he treated dissenters.

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Yes, I acknowledge that had Hitler been so inclined to leave Berlin, he had opportunities.These opportunities dwindled as the Battle of Berlin advanced. And yes, that he was aware of them. And yes, that they would need to be prepared for. Sooo...what is your point here?

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My point was made in the prior post, which you avoid here and thus must concede it.

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Not what I said.

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You're right - but you implied it by failing to entertain any alternative in suggesting Hanna Reitsch was the only viable means out.

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I'm well aware. The general was wounded on the flight in. I think it goes without saying that flying a Fieseler Storch into the heart of Berlin while it was under complete Soviet siege was highly dangerous and that the plane would take ground fire. There's no significance in you pointing this out. It is common sense.

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It's very significant because you offer Hanna Reitsch as his most viable option for escape but circumstances that I point out unequivocally demonstrate it was risky and would have been a foolish decision. Further, Hitler's actions demonstrate he was aware of how risky the flight was. Thus, if he was contemplating escape, this would have been a very low scoring alternative compared to others.

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I flatly reject your premise. I find it not odd in the least bit. And the general was not Himmler's replacement. You can read his last political testament I posted on page 1 where you can clearly see Himmler's replacement was Gauleiter Karl Hanke.

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The guy was Goring's replacement. I made a mistake there. That said, you give no reason why such action is not odd for a man that allegedly saw the war as being lost and his suicide imminent. Though Hitler may have said 'resist till death' it is clear he acknowledged that he'd lost the war. His desperate maneuvers against the Soviets illustrated this, as well as documentation about his decision calculus.

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None of this makes a valid argument at all. In fact, it makes no sense at all. "Uhh, Hitler coundn't have ordered Himmler's punishment and then killed himself prior to getting confirmation!" Uhh, yes, he could have.

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You're right, he could have. But why would someone seeing no hope or future, planning to commit suicide, have someone flown in and personally tell them to 'get this guy'? Such activity is not consistent with suicidal thought at all. And, what I advance here is not an argument, it is part of an argument.

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You are projecting onto Hitler the notion that knowledge of the war being lost conferred a desire for capitulation to the enemy.

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In now way have I asserted that. You are not carefully reading what I write.

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Again, read the testament. And nothing in there reflects new or different attitudes from Hitler on the subject. He was very consistent that resistance until death was the proper course of action. He openly called for continued resistance and obedience to the new government.

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Here is your problem - everything for you goes back to that testament but that is just one small piece of this puzzle. He may have said 'resist until death' but he never picked up a rifle. And committing suicide is not resisting in the least. However, escaping could be part of a plan to resist, particularly for someone that believed his two most loyal followers suddenly became traitors.

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I'm suggesting that you are hiding behind the notion of "Nazi lies" to cover for the fact that you have no substantive argument outside of vague conjecture.

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I've devoted very little time to 'Nazi lies' accept to say that alleged witnesses can't be thought of as the best evidence or even reasonable evidence here.
Declaring I have nothing but vague conjecture does not support your argument and does not weaken mine.

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What was my ignorance exactly?

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In suggesting flying with Reitsch was his most viable option. You have illustrated your ignorance here by asserting that and then later acknowledging the flight was risky and vulnerable and not being able to counter the fact that orders from Hitler to attack Soviet positions in Berlin serve as an excellent method to facilitate his escape and mitigate danger he would have faced on that flight, particularly in a city filled with underground networks he could use while Soviets dealt with threats from above.


I substituted the name Himmler for Goring but that did not change the substance of my argument. You cling to that fact because it is you that has no argument.

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Yeah, they're really fricked. They'll believe that Hitler shot himself in the bunker at the end of WWII, just like every other credentialed historian in the world.

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If they take after your inadequate skills in argumentation and logic, yes, they are doomed. Prayers sent.

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Hitler saw the end coming, he came up with a quick back story and he fled, thinking he had a small chance to resurrect the Reich or more likely that he could at least not die at the hands of the Russians, whom he feared.

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Since I'm just entering this thread how about we start here:

What back story are you referring to, how & when did Hitler flee Berlin, and what evidence are you basing these assertions on?

Also, if he held the slightest belief that the Reich could be saved & eventually restored, then why would he order the Nero decree?

According to some crazy arse people the holocaust never happened. The Nazis did nothing wrong, they just wanted to deport Jews out of Germany. To these people, there was no escape or commit suicide decision for Hitler to make, as they did no wrong. Truly insane people.