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How can we fix public discourse?
Posted on 5/23/17 at 4:31 pm
Posted on 5/23/17 at 4:31 pm
Lets start with some basic parameters. First, can we do this with out using facts. Seriously. One side has succeeded in shaping the narrative to their "advantage". Alternative facts, or even more dangerous, the feelings over facts paradigm (Newt Gingrich), has become an actual component to this discussion. And while it may be serving that side well at the moment, it will undoubtedly be coming back to bite them in the near future.
So arguing with facts has become nearly pointless. It is only met with; fake news, liberal media lies, or some other form of disavowal. "Show me a link, or prove it" is actually just code for, "show me the facts and I'll show you I don't care". But yet, it seems most public discourse is still fighting feelings with facts. Is it a lost cause?
So what other suggestions can thinking people come up with? (I know, silly question for the OT, I'm just rolling out a very beta version here). I feel there is a somewhat cohesive entity responsible for this phenomenon. But short of riots in the street actually compelling them to do some systematic deprogramming, they will not be helpful in my opinion.
Has anyone ever successfully reasoned with some one from the other side? Not changed their mind, but even had a glimmer of hope with some one who you feel is really far out in either direction? How did you do it?
So arguing with facts has become nearly pointless. It is only met with; fake news, liberal media lies, or some other form of disavowal. "Show me a link, or prove it" is actually just code for, "show me the facts and I'll show you I don't care". But yet, it seems most public discourse is still fighting feelings with facts. Is it a lost cause?
So what other suggestions can thinking people come up with? (I know, silly question for the OT, I'm just rolling out a very beta version here). I feel there is a somewhat cohesive entity responsible for this phenomenon. But short of riots in the street actually compelling them to do some systematic deprogramming, they will not be helpful in my opinion.
Has anyone ever successfully reasoned with some one from the other side? Not changed their mind, but even had a glimmer of hope with some one who you feel is really far out in either direction? How did you do it?
17
Posted on 5/23/17 at 4:33 pm to HeadCoach
I'd start by asking them to apologize.
See where it goes from there.
See where it goes from there.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 4:33 pm to HeadCoach
Ya, I have several liberal friends who I have great conversations with.
But that's because I'm not a hyperpartisan dickbag and neither are they.
But that's because I'm not a hyperpartisan dickbag and neither are they.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 4:36 pm to HeadCoach
It's not my fault some people are stupid.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 4:41 pm to HeadCoach
For starters you have to actually really be interested in a discussion and open to the possibility of having your mind changed. That does not mean you cant have core beliefs. But you should allow yourself to have those beliefs challenged
This post was edited on 5/23/17 at 4:44 pm
Posted on 5/23/17 at 4:42 pm to HeadCoach
We need to evolve beyond Right and Left, Conservative and Liberal. These terms have no meaning anymore in today's world.
We need to evaluate ideas as either good or bad. Flesh out the positive and negative consequences both in the short and long term.
We need to evaluate ideas as either good or bad. Flesh out the positive and negative consequences both in the short and long term.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 4:42 pm to HeadCoach
Mitch Landrieu told me it all starts with Monuments, Street names, and Statutes. Until we can fix this we can't fix that.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 4:44 pm to ThuperThumpin
I probably have an equal amount of friends that are conservative and liberal. I enjoy debates with those that don't agree with me more, but then again, all the people I'm friends with aren't radical partizan get their feelings hurt bitches.
If you really want to fix things, then get rid of political parties altogether. No more R or D by your name. Everyone's independent and must run on what they believe. When that trickles down to society and people actually have to think for themselves, then we can have more meaningful discussions.
If you really want to fix things, then get rid of political parties altogether. No more R or D by your name. Everyone's independent and must run on what they believe. When that trickles down to society and people actually have to think for themselves, then we can have more meaningful discussions.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 4:46 pm to HeadCoach
1) no one is "right"
2) stop talking and listen
3) people are wired differently and have different perspectives. A healthy society needs various outlooks.
2) stop talking and listen
3) people are wired differently and have different perspectives. A healthy society needs various outlooks.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 4:59 pm to RogerTheShrubber
Some good comments in here. I also think we have to recognize there is such a thing as impartiality, at least to some reasonable degree. Politico for example, may not be absolute zero, but there has to be a middle ground to reach for. Oh and the downvotes affirm me, and encourage me to continue this discussion. Thanks! 
Posted on 5/23/17 at 5:09 pm to HeadCoach
quote:
Is it a lost cause?
Yes, and has been for a long time.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 5:11 pm to Hugo Stiglitz
quote:
We need to evolve beyond Right and Left, Conservative and Liberal. These terms have no meaning anymore in today's world.
We have added the extremists to the defined Left and Right groups who do not represent the majority of either group. I am a conservative independent but I have voted for Dems in the past.
The issue that I have with the "Left" is that the Dems of today are wolves in sheeps clothing and are not the Democrats of 10-15 yrs ago. The Democratic Party has been taken over in power by the Progressives whose ideals are to seize power by any means necessary. Also the Progressives are mostly funded by the foreign mega rich. I have looked for a parallel group in the "Right" but I dont see it. The Tea Party is way too nice to be this group.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 5:12 pm to HeadCoach
quote:
One side has succeeded in shaping the narrative to their "advantage". Alternative facts, or even more dangerous, the feelings over facts paradigm (Newt Gingrich), has become an actual component to this discussion.
Would you care to explain these statements.
Which side has shaped which narrative?
Do you equate "alternative facts" with "feelings over facts"? What does that have to do with Newt Gingrich?
I suspect that you aren't going to get very far with fair minded public discourse if you start with premises that are objectionable at the start.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 5:16 pm to HeadCoach
Things would get a lot better if there was some social expectation that before you got loud and animated in a debate, you had to actually know what you were talking about. Mark Steyn used to talk about this a lot.
On controversial subjects, I usually find that the more one reads and studies an issue, the more nuanced they understand the issue to be. They may not break from their position in the slightest, but it becomes less black and white and they begin to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the respective sides. People like that don't usually go off the deep end.
For example, liberals who are in counterterrorism or security fields tend to be much less "we are the world, don't be racist!" than liberals who aren't. Meanwhile, conservatives with mastery of counterterrorism, Islam, the Middle East, etc. tend to be far less "Kill them all, they're all evil!" than their less knowledgeable counterparts on the right.
On controversial subjects, I usually find that the more one reads and studies an issue, the more nuanced they understand the issue to be. They may not break from their position in the slightest, but it becomes less black and white and they begin to understand the strengths and weaknesses of the respective sides. People like that don't usually go off the deep end.
For example, liberals who are in counterterrorism or security fields tend to be much less "we are the world, don't be racist!" than liberals who aren't. Meanwhile, conservatives with mastery of counterterrorism, Islam, the Middle East, etc. tend to be far less "Kill them all, they're all evil!" than their less knowledgeable counterparts on the right.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 5:20 pm to HeadCoach
1. Read the Political Talk.
2. Do the exact opposite of what they do.
2. Do the exact opposite of what they do.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 5:21 pm to Superior Pariah
quote:
1. Read the Political Talk.
2. Do the exact opposite of what they do.
That's exactly how one becomes a bubble dweller.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 5:24 pm to GetmorewithLes
quote:
The issue that I have with the "Left" is that the Dems of today are wolves in sheeps clothing and are not the Democrats of 10-15 yrs ago. The Democratic Party has been taken over in power by the Progressives whose ideals are to seize power by any means necessary. Also the Progressives are mostly funded by the foreign mega rich. I have looked for a parallel group in the "Right" but I dont see it. The Tea Party is way too nice to be this group.
This need to pigeon hole people and categorize them to broad labels is the problem. Be opposed to ideas, not parties or movements. We are all people, we all breathe the same air, and we all want what's best for our future. I realize it's very difficult to break away from the team mentality of "us vs them." But if we are going to make real positive change, we need to do it together where multiple voices are heard.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 5:24 pm to HeadCoach
The best way to fix discourse is with intercourse.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 5:39 pm to ThuperThumpin
quote:
For starters you have to actually really be interested in a discussion and open to the possibility of having your mind changed. That does not mean you cant have core beliefs. But you should allow yourself to have those beliefs challenged
At some point in the last 10 or so years... this mentality was labeled as "flip-flopping". So now, you are never allowed to change or evolve your ideas. You have to pick the side you are on, and stay with it until the death.
Unfortunetly, the combination of 24 hour news and social media have given a huge microphone to the fringe ends of our society. They have been so successful at hogging all the energy, that the rest of us just want to ignore it and be left alone. None of us in the middle have the energy to grab both sides by the balls and tell them to knock it off. So, their foolishness goes unchecked.
What scares the hell out of me is that the edges seem to be growing. Smart, reasonable people I know have been getting pulled to both sides. My mother, whom I love and is a sweet and innocent person (almost too much so) has become a raging anti-Trump nut. Every day she posts at least a half dozen things blasting him. I think it's no coincidence that she is dating a man that is a musician.
Since about this point last year, I've had to write off about a half dozen friendships because the people, whom I had respected, went off the deep end. Three to the left, three to the right.
Posted on 5/23/17 at 5:47 pm to Hugo Stiglitz
quote:
I realize it's very difficult to break away from the team mentality of "us vs them."
You hit the nail on the head. Every election I come across people supporting candidates who do not support their personal desires and just go with the team vote. I probably do it too especially when it comes to the "undercard" races.
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