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re: For those interested, a TL, DR on ISIS
Posted on 2/17/15 at 2:37 pm to kingbob
Posted on 2/17/15 at 2:37 pm to kingbob
quote:
False, wrong wrong wrong.
ISIS has EVERYTHING to do with bad government.
Whether it was the Assad regime completely disregarding the majority Sunni population of his country, the United States barring former Baathists (Sunnis) from the new Iraqi government, Al Maliki purging Sunni's from his cabinet and the military, ect. ISIS could not recruit or operate absent of bad government.
I agree, although I think there is a tendency to treat these things as mutually exclusive.
Bad governance, squalor and general disenchantment with life are the lifeblood of ISIS recruiting. That said, that doesn't mean a root cause approach is likely to succeed, nor does it take away from the fact that Islam is the primary driver of the movement itself.
1
Posted on 2/17/15 at 2:37 pm to deeprig9
quote:
Baghdadi permits them to live, as long as they pay a special tax, known as the jizya, and acknowledge their subjugation.
Subjugation. That's what the evil side wants. It comes as no surprise they don't kill anyone on the good side that subjugates.
Posted on 2/17/15 at 2:40 pm to touchdownjeebus
quote:
Here is something this article fails to address:
According to Islamic law, they MUST dictate their actions.
Another error in the article. Look up muruna.
Islamics are specifically allowed by law to deceive.
Posted on 2/17/15 at 2:41 pm to Meauxjeaux
It's sounding more and more like Islam is the religion of tricksy hobbitses.
Posted on 2/17/15 at 2:42 pm to anc
Posted on 2/17/15 at 2:44 pm to Meauxjeaux
quote:
Subjugation. That's what the evil side wants. It comes as no surprise they don't kill anyone on the good side that subjugates.
It's merely a strategic manuever at this point. I believe somewhere in the article he even mentions that Mohammed forbade them from further "indoctrination" until the state was on defenseive, meaning they had established a territory, and were defending it.
They are only allowed, at this point, by their prophet, to "indoctrinate" fellow Mulsims at this point.
I am referring to indoctrination, as they refer to it. There is no conversion, to become indoctrinated to the Islamic faith, according to their beliefs, is to be executed.
Posted on 2/17/15 at 2:45 pm to The Sad Banana
High 5 , Nana
Though jeaux has sounded like gandalf the entire thread
Though jeaux has sounded like gandalf the entire thread
Posted on 2/17/15 at 2:46 pm to deeprig9
quote:
Ceyhan Turkey is the seaward terminal of the newest oil pipeline from the middle east.
It goes up through Turkey, around Armenia through Georgia, and into Azerbaijan where it gets oil from the Caspian Sea.
So what the hell does that have to do with anything?
In brief-
It fricks Russia
It fricks Iran
It is operated by BP, sort of.
BP is best buddies with UAE.
UAE-style Muslims are the worst kind of Muslim, by ISIS standards.
The threat of having that terminus shelled 24/7 from 50 miles away in Dabiq would frick Europe, empower Russia and Iran, weaken the secular world economy, strengthen the Arab Peninsula, enrich OPEC, and bring the West to its knees through a series of falling dominoes.
It's the perfect place for ISIS to set up a "Come at me bro" location to bring about the end of the world as we know it.
Drink of the wine of her fornication!
Posted on 2/17/15 at 2:48 pm to Meauxjeaux
quote:
But Muslims who call the Islamic State un-Islamic are typically, as the Princeton scholar Bernard Haykel, the leading expert on the group’s theology, told me, “embarrassed and politically correct, with a cotton-candy view of their own religion” that neglects “what their religion has historically and legally required.” Many denials of the Islamic State’s religious nature, he said, are rooted in an “interfaith-Christian-nonsense tradition.”
Posted on 2/17/15 at 2:48 pm to Meauxjeaux
quote:
Islamics are specifically allowed by law to deceive.
In limited circumstances. Obviously taqiyya and the like are used by extremists and the like with some regularity. However, I'm not so certain the same will apply for ISIS.
It may be that ISIS is ultimately more predictable than other violent Islamic movements, but speculation regarding tenets of Islam by non-Muslims is always going to be hit or miss.
Posted on 2/17/15 at 2:48 pm to Pettifogger
quote:
Bad governance, squalor and general disenchantment with life are the lifeblood of ISIS recruiting.
Agree when it comes to local recruiting. That doesn't explain what draws fighters and would-be fighters from Europe, North America, and elsewhere. Many of whom are well educated and middle class. Some of whom had no religious, cultural, or ethnic connection to Islam before this. Something about the absolute nihilism of ISIS attracts disaffected twentysomethings. I don't know what kind of American or Australian kid sees someone being beheaded or burned to death and says, "I want to be a part of that," but some do. It mystifies me. Maybe the same kind of kid who was brainwashed into jointing the Manson cult in the sixties.
Posted on 2/17/15 at 2:49 pm to Nonetheless
quote:
The problem is they, like the US, are wanting to do this the easy way, with bombs from 20,000 feet on a merely tactical level. You're not going to defeat ISIS with the use of tactical air power.
Can you explain this reasoning to me? I'm not trying to troll you here. But is ISIS impervious to missiles and bombs?
You bring up a good question actually. The simple answer is that air power alone cannot defeat an enemy. It is VERY effective at hurting them for sure, but it cannot defeat an enemy like ISIS all by itself. You see, as the article states, ISIS is for all intents and purposes a state. It controls territory. It's the fact it holds territory that makes it what it is.
In this regard ISIS different from other terrorist organizations and a bit more like a traditional foe like Germany in WWII. We bombed the Germans back to the stone ages to the point at even the most ardent air power defenders were having to admit we had run out of viable targets and were just "bouncing bricks around". But it was not the strategic bombing alone that made Germany go down in defeat. No, ground forces had to go and physically take from and then occupy the land that Germany held. That is the only way ISIS will be destroyed. The only question is who is it going to be to go in and do this.
Now there is one possible exception to this rule of needing ground forces to destroy ISIS... we could just nuke them over and over like we did Japan and eventually they would throw in the towel.
Either way, there are no easy answers and the world leaders are only playing a fools game with these pin-prick tactical air strikes.
Posted on 2/17/15 at 2:57 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
Agree when it comes to local recruiting. That doesn't explain what draws fighters and would-be fighters from Europe, North America, and elsewhere. Many of whom are well educated and middle class. Some of whom had no religious, cultural, or ethnic connection to Islam before this. Something about the absolute nihilism of ISIS attracts disaffected twentysomethings. I don't know what kind of American or Australian kid sees someone being beheaded or burned to death and says, "I want to be a part of that," but some do. It mystifies me. Maybe the same kind of kid who was brainwashed into jointing the Manson cult in the sixties.
Yep, you're correct. It's a void to be filled, and we all have it. Some have easier access to things to fill it. Some are predisposed to certain calls (Islamic countries).
I would contend that faith-based movements have the capability of being the strongest (as opposed to nation based, race based, ideology based, etc.). While I'm mixed on the apocalyptic anti-Islam crowd, one mantra I do fully support is the concept that a faith based movement, if grown to appropriate size and strength, will easily dominate a countering movement based on something even more abstract.
By that, I mean USA vs. ISIS is a winnable fight. Christianity vs. ISIS or the UK vs. ISIS are as well. More vague and obtuse "enemies," however, like political correctness or tolerance or justice for all of humanity, are surely to fail. Examining root causes is a valid exercise and potentially a very meaningful one. But claiming, as we currently are, to be in a battle with violent extremism everywhere as opposed to ISIS or extremist Islam is a loss before this even starts.
Posted on 2/17/15 at 3:09 pm to Pettifogger
One thing ISIS may do is galvanize everyone in the Islamic world to pick a side. The question has always been asked, "where are the moderate Muslims?" They've often been on the sideline, for any number of reasons. ISIS doesn't let anyone sit on the sideline. You're for them all the way down the line, or you're the enemy and they will do their best to destroy you. The vast majority of Muslims who just want to be left alone and live their lives in peace are in this fight now, whether they like it or not.
Posted on 2/17/15 at 3:13 pm to Jim Rockford
quote:
One thing ISIS may do is galvanize everyone in the Islamic world to pick a side. The question has always been asked, "where are the moderate Muslims?" They've often been on the sideline, for any number of reasons. ISIS doesn't let anyone sit on the sideline. You're for them all the way down the line, or you're the enemy and they will do their best to destroy you. The vast majority of Muslims who just want to be left alone and live their lives in peace are in this fight now, whether they like it or not.
Hence the likely baiting for overreaction by the west and authoritarian states in the Middle East/North Africa. They need to set up the dichotomy between us and them and make that choice extremely difficult for even less-than-moderate Muslims who otherwise would not participate in such a movement.
Posted on 2/17/15 at 3:19 pm to Rook
Anjem Choudary is a a tool. His audience is us, because the legit bad guys don't take him seriously.
Posted on 2/17/15 at 3:21 pm to Meauxjeaux
They are allowed to decieve but only under very specific circumstances, none of which are applicable Right now.
EDIT: think going to McDonalds as cover.
EDIT: think going to McDonalds as cover.
This post was edited on 2/17/15 at 3:23 pm
Posted on 2/17/15 at 3:22 pm to Pettifogger
Can't we just photoshop some pictures of their grand caliph taking it in the arse from Bubba and verify the photos authenticity? Wouldn't him being homosexual put him out of business and the rest of the wackos without a caliph.
Short of that, I say give them what they want and send in troops and destroy their asses. Let them talk about how right they were that the end of times was coming, then they can be sorely disappointed when the second half of that prediction never comes true. I really don't get the donkey dicking around with the fricks. Just go wipe them off the planet.
Short of that, I say give them what they want and send in troops and destroy their asses. Let them talk about how right they were that the end of times was coming, then they can be sorely disappointed when the second half of that prediction never comes true. I really don't get the donkey dicking around with the fricks. Just go wipe them off the planet.
Posted on 2/17/15 at 3:23 pm to anc
Why do people care so much about ISIS?
Posted on 2/17/15 at 3:24 pm to DirtyMikeandtheBoys
Yes and no. You must have 51 percent control before you can convert by the sword.
There are rules to this shite, but we do a terrible job understanding said rules.
There are rules to this shite, but we do a terrible job understanding said rules.
This post was edited on 2/17/15 at 3:25 pm
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